Subject: Thread about the generational aspects of music preferences
Date: Thu Jun 14 16:37:36 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:After considering other alternatives...…...I think this thread best suites this research topic. I *think* I got it from Nate Silver's site, but it's been a few days and I've forgotten for sure. Lots to chew on here, *IF* one is interested in (relatively recent, especially) pop music, or how the 'creation' (lol) aspect of the music biz works these days. It confirms, and entrenches, for me why I detest 95-98% of today's "pop" music (and hip-hip, which is even worse). And conversely, why I think the richest music is of the type represented as "Americana" - which is essentially the opposite of "pop" of this universe.
Lots of clichés have been around for quite a while about this, but I've never seen any quantification of it, nor expected anyone to analyze it like this. To say pop music has long ago lost it's soul is apparently an understatement. But what puzzles me is WHY PEOPLE STILL LISTEN TO IT, and buy it, etc. I have zero clue about that. Well, yes......actually I could make a guess or two, but that would be pejorative, and far be it from me to go there....
I truly can't believe, tho, that commercial radio that plays pop music still exists, and people apparently listen to it, ads and all. I suppose those differences are what makes the world go 'round, tho??
As a sidenote…….we learn that "Uptown Funk" that Julia found for us on another thread ("Old Movie Stars Dance to Uptown Funk" in the "Stream of Consciousness" one), is credited to *11* "songwriters".
Link: The pop music bizness - how it 'works'
Date: Sat Jun 16 19:22:15 2018
User: BuzzClik
Message:TN — While growing up back in the day when radio was the only alternative (pre-MTV, VH1, etc), did you ever listen to Top 40 pop music if you had a choice?
Date: Sat Jun 23 14:56:46 2018
User: Franko
Message:It sounds like you guys are, most likely, seniors like myself. I am 82 years old and I fully agree with TNmountainman and his take on what they call "music" these days. And yes Buzz I did listen to the top forty songs when that show was on. There was also a TV station that had a cadre of singers that would give their versions of the top ten hits of the day. After the fifties and early sixties, music changed so much that I had a hard time listening to it, so I kind of hung there in the fifties, constantly seeking out fifties radio stations. I did enjoy the country music genre, what we now call "Classic Country" but like the pop music it changed and went cerebral. When Glen Campbell started singing about the "echo's of my mind" and the "rivers of my memory" I kind of drifted away from that also. A few great contemporary singers did came along, though the years, with some good music, Celine Dion and Whitney Houston come to mind. With a few exceptions, I listened to fifties music for fifty plus years and was wandering in a musical desert until 2017 when I discovered KCEA and U-tube.
Now, with u-tube and Google, we can call up just about any song ever recorded AND listen to the original version of it. Last year, I happened on to radio station KCEA 89.1 here in Atherton which is in the San Francisco Bay area. Their signal is too weak to get unless you are within fifteen miles of the station but they stream their music 24/7 year round with no commercials. They play 30's and 40's music nonstop. I call it a dream come true. If you want to hear the music your parents listened to, give it a listen. Go to www.kcea.org, when the site comes up, click on the picture of the old fashioned radio and the music will start streaming. I will warn you, though, that it is an automatic station, I drove over there and found out that they only come in in the evening and do maintenance and once in a great while the station will go down and it is off the air for a few hours, or sometimes, a day, but not very often. Check it out.
Date: Sat Jun 23 15:50:39 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Sorry, Buzz - I somehow missed your question above. The answer is "no" - not after the great era of FM came upon the land. The idea of a "mix", and/or playing 15-20+ minute cuts like "In-A-Godda-Da-Vida" or "Alice's Restaurant" was a brave new world, and I never looked back. It was like the Wild West, with almost total freedom, and not yet enough advertisers to gum up the works (for quite a long while). That said...….if I was in a car that maybe only had AM radio, then yes - but then that means there was really no choice at that moment. I used to collect lists of top 40 songs, or top 100 even, but that was before "the enlightenment" came. In my mind (as well as in the minds of all my contemporaries then and now), the emergence of the free-form formats of FM radio was a HUGE key in the development of progressive music, and allowed the album format to come to fruition. (And of course that's not news to anyone.) I would say it was perhaps the major single factor that allowed music to "mean" something back at that time - and it did. That whole revolutionary force (and I mean that in multiple ways) is something that folks considerably younger than myself will never be able to fully grasp. One can read about it in a book, etc., but it's not like living it. I could elaborate at great length on this, but as others already have, in great depth, in beaucoups books, no point in me regurgitating that history.
But to extend that further, while I'm on this...………..that background helps explain why I believe (a lot of) today's "music" (and I'm mostly referring to "pop") is so hollow, and as my link above demonstrates, is devoid of the passion and sheer urgency that made the '60s and early '70s so vibrant musically. That's a gross generalization, to be sure, with scads of counter-examples in the present era. But the mere fact that such a 'factory' mentality can be used to produce 'music', or even *exists*, I feel makes my point.
Date: Sat Jun 23 19:56:08 2018
User: Franko
Message:Whoops! Sorry......... Looks like I jumped right in the middle of a serious discussion you two are having about the generational aspects of pop music. I thought my addition was kinda generational and that you might be interested how one person dealt with it. I love a lot of the points brought up and I wish I was intelligent enough to add something to the mix. All I can say is that it ain't like it used to be.
Date: Sun Jun 24 03:35:35 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Franko, you're completely welcome to join in in any way you wish. This ain't no private party, nor "this ain't no disco", to be a bit cute. While it could be considered a serious discussion, I guess, nobody's gonna get their feathers ruffled (I don't think). Buzz and I come to this from somewhat different angles and places......but we each, I believe, have a deep appreciation for 'serious' music - which can be defined in precisely 118 ways - as of last count. This kind of thing is what makes the world go 'round. He started a thread about new music some time ago. And although I'm ~2.3 years behind on that thread, and although our tastes don't nearly coincide, he has certainly turned me on to some out-of-the-mainstream music that I would have *never* stumbled upon - and that I actually like.
You also mention online radio........something I've brought up before on multiple occasions. While your station might not be my cup of tea, I am still trying to find a (hardware?) solution to be able to quickly switch back and forth to various NPR radio stations like one would with a regular FM radio - ideally with remote control. This quest has been astonishingly frustrating, and so far futile. I'm just flabbergasted that large numbers of folks don't want to listen to radio in that fashion. Or maybe there's *not* a solution, and that's why nobody else seems to want what I do.
Date: Sun Jun 24 10:50:19 2018
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:Regarding today's pop music having multiple writers...
I do think these days we've taken that to a new level, but that is the way it has always been. Think about Motown. Those guys even made their credit line "the Corporation."
Pop music is usually a Frankenstein creation...take the best songwriters, the best musicians, the best singers, and the best technicians, put them in the best studios and make a record. Then advertise like crazy. Pay djs. Or vjs. Whatever is the current way to reach the young folks.
The Wrecking Crew played on loads of hit songs during the late 60's, a time Buzz and I agree is the high watermark for music. Hell, Brian Wilson wouldn't even let his own brothers play on Pet Sounds.
Beyonce's Lemonade and Taylor Swift's 1989 are good examples of the "huge number of writers phenomenon." The only person who is credited on every song is the singer on each of those albums. But somehow, despite that, there is a sameness and flow to the albums. Like, in the end, there is someone really in charge, making it their voice.
I agree that pop music is not the most interesting musical form. The formula stated above is built to appeal to the largest group of people. But that means it will rarely go deep or personal.
But today's pop has some great music just like throughout time most of it has sucked. The Archie's "Sugar Sugar" was the best selling song of 1969. Abbey Road, Led Zeppelin's I and II, The Velvet Underground, Let it Bleed, Five Leaves Left, Tommy and Trout Mask Replica all came out that year.
James
Date: Sun Jun 24 11:10:03 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:I've decided to "chime-in" here. I have hundreds of "old favorites", but I think my all-time favorite is:
THE TORNADOS TELSTAR 1962 (original recording #1 in both American and British charts).
The thing is, of course, it isn't really a "song", but an instrumental.
I will try to make a Youtube link:
Link: TELSTAR
Date: Sun Jun 24 12:01:48 2018
User: BuzzClik
Message:Franko hits upon something that is recurrent through every music discussion I've witnessed: the vast majority of people have the songs of their youth (teens and early twenties) burned into their brains. It's a time of life when the everything is amplified -- emotions, hormones, physical prowess. And songs that are meaningful at that time stay meaningful forever, nearly always to the point that all music that comes after is inferior. Lots of folks stay engaged with new music or may change genres (from pop or rock to classical or jazz), but it never carries the same meaning.
For a scant few of us, if the music isn't brand new, it isn't interesting. I listen to music during every waking hour with the exception of work and family time. And, I only listen to brand new stuff. Indie music is my choice because its roots are in rock and the production is always bare minimum. Raw. The musicians in the band compose the music, write the lyrics, and play the instruments. They may dash off to a recording studio somewhere to immerse themselves in the recording, and then hire some guy to mix it. And then it's on the road to perform this music in small venues filled with adoring kids (usually twenty somethings or early thirties) who may or may not know the words to the songs.
I love the new indie music because it is so real. There's no army behind the music bending and shaping and autotuning to maximize the marketability. Just a bunch of dedicated musicians who aren't making a damned dime beyond what we pay them for the songs and the tickets for their shows.
So, yeah, pop music has pretty much always sucked. It sucked less when you recorded directly onto vinyl or reel-to-reel, and was still good in the old 4-track recorder days (e.g., Sergeant Pepper). But, oh my god, it has never sucked like it sucks today.
Date: Sun Jun 24 14:42:31 2018
User: outskirts
Message:My YouTube back in the day was the request line on a local FM (no static at all) station early in the morning when a certain DJ would play anything I requested.
Now I want video with my audio (because it's there) and YouTube is my favorite website.
Date: Sun Jun 24 19:25:49 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Well it appears this thread has come full circle. I suggest those new to this thread, or who don't remember how it began 4.5 years ago, to go back and read the first couple of posts. Pretty interesting. (And no, I did *not* go back and read them before my recent posts on this page.)
I can appreciate Buzz's devotion to Indie music, for the reasons he states. Although I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about it (hardly), it in most cases is "so real", as he states. That's majorly important. In my view, that, at least in that manner, links it to the '60s and early '70s stuff. I somehow think he's gotten the impression that I'm "stuck" in that era. Again, hardly. Probably 75-80% (just a guess) of what I listen to has been recorded within the last 5 years. Despite my extensive music collection, almost always I'd rather listen to new Americana music on NPR stations. Also, I'm a huge live music fan - yet totally eschewing "vintage rock" as performance. That's anathema to me, and has been for well more than 20 years. I literally would not go see the Stones across town for free - and would not have for more than 20 years. There *are* a few artists that transcend that stance - Neil Young comes to mind because so much of his stuff is fresh and still relevant - but really very few.
Americana also fits what Buzz says about Indie music - it's (by and large) "so real", and most musicians aren't gonna make a living at it - for long, or very much of one, at least. They do it because they can't *not* do it; and because they love it. That's 'art', in my book.
As for 1969...…...that was likely the pinnacle of the music years of my life, with james's list being only scratching the surface (but scratching it pretty well), although one need only check out any 5-10 examples from Monterey 1967 (as well documented on this board in the "Old Music" thread) to wonder about that. However, on balance, 1967 was still more than one foot in the top 40 pop era.
Lastly...……….while I don't necessarily disagree with Buzz's first paragraph in his last post above, I truly think the late '60s had/has internal cred FAR beyond other eras. And I think, as I stated in the post I started this thread with, that that era was unique. Unique because "the music" (as a universal background) had not yet become ubiquitous. That, tied with the upheavals going on politically, created a true "force" that was much bigger than "itself", if that makes sense. It was bigger than the sum of its parts. We're living in absurdly chaotic times right now, with the current political morass. Yet it was more chaotic in the '60s. It's hard to say which time frame had the greatest chance for a catastrophic outcome, as one could make a good argument for both...………...but the relevance and importance of the music back 50 years ago was absolutely *more* than the product of whoever had that music as "the songs of their youth". It was actually a force, and became part of the ether of the times.
Date: Sun Jun 24 20:19:51 2018
User: BuzzClik
Message:I didn't mean to imply that you were stuck in any era, TN. I am aware of your taste for the modern Americana. You and I started near the same point but ventured off in slightly different directions. (I include you in the "scant few" of my post above)
Date: Mon Jun 25 05:24:13 2018
User: outskirts
Message:"the girls don't seem to care what's on"
brilliant lyrics, not
great music anyhow
who was at this concert?
that's okay you can watch it on your phone now. or tablet. or giant tv.
Link: Steely Dan FM
Date: Wed Jun 27 14:41:50 2018
User: outskirts
Message:Remember the times when you would visit friends then flip through all their music, or do the same when first meeting someone? Then you'd know who you were dealing with!
Date: Wed Jun 27 14:44:39 2018
User: outskirts
Message:I still have a double stacked rack (I built myself) of 33 1/3 vinyl records you can flip through!
Date: Mon Feb 6 12:21:35 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:I hesitate to post this..................'cause in general the Grammys aren't worth discussing (as I noted back on the first page of this thread in 2014: "The Grammys have been essentially irrelevant all along.") However...................................it's 'nice' to see Bonnie R. pick up her 11th,12th, and 13th. Just for the heck of it.
And of course I didn't watch any of it, but from the pics "out there" today, it appears it was more attention-attracting as a fashion show than a celebration of music - or even what *passes* for music in some/many circles. And no, that's not surprising in this day and age - but regrettable nonetheless.
Link: Bonnie R. scores again, and again and again
Date: Mon Feb 6 12:42:07 2023
User: BuzzClik
Message:Excellent post, TN. Bonnie is top notch. I had a couple of roommates in school who loved Bonnie Raitt, and my introduction to her was the "Home Plate" album in the late 1970s. I loved her music and attended a concert of hers in Pullman, Washington in 1982 or so. Her career had plateaued, and she told the audience that night that she was transitioning to rock and roll. She played maybe two songs I recognized, and I left that concert really disappointed. She continued to struggle over the next few years before releasing her amazing, "Nick of Time" followed by "Luck of the Draw." I have tried a couple of times to buy tickets to her recent concerts, but she remains a huge draw, and getting reasonably-priced tickets is problematic.
So fantastic to see her back on top.
Date: Mon Feb 6 12:49:13 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:If one reads that article, it talks about the song (which I haven't heard), but attributes the inspiration of it to John Prine. I was fortunate enough to see them together at a show some time ago. A nice pairing, to say the least. The admiration and affection towards each other was obvious, not surprisingly.
[edit: And yes, I share your view of both the albums you mention.]
Date: Mon Feb 6 13:19:48 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:Indeed. Thanks. Organ donation is so common nowadays, that probably all of us, or most of us, know someone who's been on one side of the other of that, or both. I had a good friend who went away too early, not so very long ago, and learned a while later that his parts had been used for NINE other people. That's a profound thing - to grasp that. Or attempt to grasp it. The circle of life - and death - and life again - is simply awe-inspiring, mysterious, and, to repeat myself - profound.
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