Subject: Game number?

Date: Mon Jan 9 12:53:18 2017
User: jacknine
Message:
Is there a way for me to find the number of the game I'm playing?

Date: Mon Jan 9 13:25:02 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:
No; not until you complete it. And Denny designed the site that way for good reason.

Date: Mon Jan 9 13:46:30 2017
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
Actually, 1. Save game. 2. Go to Control Panel/Internet Options. 3. Delete history, passwords, cookies. 4. Use Explorer to fine freecell.net. 5. Click on Login. 6. Enter different nick from game saved nick. 7. Go to Scores. 8. Enter original nick in search. 9. Scroll down to Recent History of Play. Last game played should be. . . . . Damn, now I have deleted all my passwords.

Date: Mon Jan 9 14:07:06 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Well, I'm quite appalled. Truly. I guess Titanic_Tony will be pretty happy though... And how is this an "interpretation". Shouldn't "The_Revelator" have been the one to disclose this? Maybe cheating on this site is even more rampant than I thought. Sigh....

Date: Mon Jan 9 15:35:49 2017
User: jacknine
Message:
Don't get too bent out of shape, mountainman. It didn't work. The list only shows completed games and I need the number of the game I'm playing now. Oh well. Good try!

Date: Mon Jan 9 15:38:02 2017
User: jacknine
Message:
Lost it. It was 16111 (12x1).

Date: Mon Jan 9 16:12:28 2017
User: joeygray
Message:
I didn't think that worked. To the best of my knowledge that list is updated on game completion, and no other time. Of course I haven't tried it myself yet... but deleting all cookies does seem a trifle drastic. If that did work, seems to me it would work just as well to just log into the alternate nick using a different browser. Cookies are browser-specific. (Unless Denny is pulling some major chicanery, that is.)

Date: Mon Jan 9 20:32:15 2017
User: MikeC
Message:
If you have 2 computers you could try that way , But i suspect it only updates once the game is played.....

Date: Tue Jan 10 03:26:36 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:
What "bends [me] out of shape", jacknine (and I'm not trying to single out you), is this "win-at-any-cost" attitude that drives some on this site to use "artificial means" to win games. It's clearly against the spirit of the game (to quote Denny). I just don't get it. Isn't the whole purpose of being on this site to challenge oneself? 'Nuff said - I don't want to make this yet another treatise against people skewing the stats for the rest of us. That said, I certainly have no interest in trying out "The_Interpreter's" technique........but am curious if it actually worked for him (apparently it must have or he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of detailing the details?).

Date: Tue Jan 10 04:36:52 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:
It is NOT a "win-at-any-cost" attitude, it is an "enjoy-the-game" attitude, IMO! Using cards, and taking notes, is not cheating, imo!!! And, it certainly doesn't make my play perfect!! It is still possible to make "stupid" mistakes, even with cards!! I still do my own thinking; cards are not a "solver"! What would be the fun in using a solver?? It is all about having fun, imo! When there was the auto-solve glitch last year, a number of players (myself included) "went wild", having fun! If there are players who "enjoy" using a solver, well, then, so-be-it! What "bends me out of shape", is players using multiple nics!! I am not on the 8x4 alltime stats page because of so many players using multiple nics! HOWEVER, if there are players (and I'm sure there are) who *enjoy* using multiple nics, well, then, so-be-it!

Date: Tue Jan 10 12:23:23 2017
User: jacknine
Message:
I hear you, mountainman. And I agree. I was faced with what looked like an unwinnable game, and I just wanted to see if I could find any information about it before I made the first move. As it turns out, after I lost, I looked it up and found that the game (#16111 12x1) is, so far, unwinnable!

Date: Tue Jan 10 12:35:32 2017
User: Colt_McCoy
Message:
Using multiple nicks makes for some good rivalries. Just ask Sam_Bradford.

Date: Tue Jan 10 12:48:27 2017
User: The_Revelator
Message:
Cheating at freecell, much like smoking and drinking, is your ticket to the Game of Pain: "I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." So, you beat a tough game and/or extended your streak. Ah, instant gratification! How are your mad skills when it comes to walking on a sea of molten glass? Not to worry, you'll have until the end of time to figure it out.

Date: Tue Jan 10 17:45:58 2017
User: ix
Message:
>> I guess Titanic_Tony will be pretty happy though... dude, really? cheaters do not disclose themselves, what we have is a difference of opinion. you believe that tests should be closed books, closed notes, tony believes that a scratch pad is within reason. you can disagree with someone without belittling and badgering them, as long as there is respect. if there is no respect then i can see it, but i think there is. am i wrong?

Date: Tue Jan 10 17:59:39 2017
User: ix
Message:
correction: i respect you tn, and yet so feel free to belittle and badger you. good god you're from tennessee, how could i not have mixed emotions.

Date: Wed Jan 11 05:18:06 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Yeah; sadly, really. As I've 'splained before, many of us have spent *thousands* of hours on this site - surely for fun, enjoyment, and relaxation - but also for many of us as competition. When a few people are playing by a different set of "rules", it takes away the purity of competition. And not just in the present, but for all time. It DESTROYS *years* worth of statistics, and essentially makes much of them meaningless. And remember, when this issue first came up years ago, I was on the fence: I wasn't happy about it, but noted that there is no *specific* prohibition appertaining to the practice. But then on more reflection, and with the additional thoughts of others added into the discussion, I realized it was clearly "cheating". Not cheating like in a true sports competition, where everyone knows, and is supposed to obey the well-documented (in most cases) rules; but because we're all here (well, most of us) trying to see who's better at different aspects of Denny's wonderful creation. It takes away the 'fun' of it because now no one can know where he or she really stands in comparison to others. Not just in the present - but FOREVER. I call it "cheating" because it's designed to elevate the cheater's "score(s)" above those of others - who are playing by a different set of 'rules'. There's no other good way to look at it. It's selfish. Ok --- let me say that I 'buy' Tony's explanation that it makes it more fun for him, that it's easier on his eyes to use cards, and that he just likes it better. Truly, I can accept that. And if that's all it amounted to, then so what? Have at it. BUT...........as I've also pointed out - he could just play straight up, and then use cards after he's lost a game to figure it out, etc. It's just plain as day to virtually all that he wants his streaks to be as long as possible. Well......so do most others. But he's been willing to satisfy his own desires, at the expense of dozens or hundreds of others. That's just a fact. How many others here would purposely enrich themselves at the 'expense' of others? Why does he think his tiny minority (I hope) of players have priority over the vast majority (I hope and think)? We can have, as you say, a "disagreement", and of course you are correct. But if one player's actions "harm" others (as I strongly aver they have), then it's more than a "disagreement". I proffer that it's an infringement on the historical relevance of, *and* enjoyment of, this site by the majority of players. So as to "respect".......I don't know.......I suspect Tony is a fine fellow in person, but I also think his pursuit negatively affects not only many others, but also has completely ruined the statistics of this site for all time - in very much the same way that steroids have done so for baseball's hallowed statistical marks. That's MUCH MUCH MUCH more important than any personal relevance to me, or any other single person. So I absolutely cannot respect his practice. Heck - I'm not one of the top players on this site; I know that and accept it. I'm at best a footnote here. The statistics will live on as long as this site does - and hopefully(likely?) longer. Now......let me add an additional "data piece". I can't get the "Winnable Challenge" spreadsheet to open at the moment, but the last time I looked at it (a few days ago), there were only two players actively/seriously competing, best as I could tell: Tony and wasjun. We don't know wasjun's methodology - but it's fairly easy to guess (and that's all it is), that he/she employs the same tactics to get his absurd numbers. At one point not long ago, wasjun had won 43 W4x10s in a row, 52 W6x5s in a row, 99 W10x1s in a row, and 1315 W11x1s in a row, for just some examples. Sure, it's possible those were all "legitimate", but it stretches credulity. My point is that the practice(s) that have made those extraordinarily high scores have also served to chase or discourage other players away. That competition, despite Denny not codifying it, had some pretty decent participation, with a significant number of players joining in. I strongly suspect that most dropped out because of the perceived unfairness of the scores. Again - just a guess, but I know it seemed pointless to me if some people are always going to be way ahead because of their methodology. Again, to be clear - that's just another data point, but I think a strong one. Ok, enough about this. This ground has all been trod before. And ix, it's completely ok for you to belittle, badger me, or whatever. I've obviously got a thick skin, and I also know my idealism is on target here. I'm very confident my beliefs on this are appropriate. (And Denny apparently agrees.) If you, or Tony, think similarly to the contrary, then by all means hold that position. I just don't see how it's tenable with the evidence. (It *is*, as someone else pointed out, a bit refreshing that Tony doesn't try to hide or obfuscate his playing methods, so there is some kind of honor in that, I guess.) And importantly, Tony, please don't interpret this as a personal attack; it's not. It *is* an attack on your playing method - but I do not extrapolate that to you as a person. I want to be clear on that.

Date: Wed Jan 11 05:46:56 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Thanks, TN. Nice (long) dissertation! The statistics were "destroyed" (I think of it as "augmented") years before I arrived!!! I'm way less than 1%, imo. I will never, never, ever have a streak of 20,000 in 8x4! Btw, my all-time record in 12x2 took me 565 hours of playing time, and was achieved completely without cards. 1) Using cards requires more patience (and more time) than most players have, imo! 2) If more players used cards, there would be fewer never-won games, imo! Finally, players interested in (what you call) "pure" freecell competitions could play tournaments, imo!

Date: Wed Jan 11 10:12:07 2017
User: ix
Message:
so there you have it, jacknine, the answer is: no

Date: Wed Jan 11 13:04:45 2017
User: joeygray
Message:
ix: if we think The_Interpretor's comment was just facetious and not a serious claim, then ok, the answer is no. That would be reasonable to do I suppose, though he has not retracted it. If we think that was a serious claim, then I suppose somebody should go and refute it once and for all before we say no. If the claim is unrefuted and not retracted by the next time I happen to be in the public library, I'll save a game from my tablet, then log into freecell under a (gasp) alternate nick on a library computer and check it out. TN: agree with everything you said, which was 1) why it's cheating, 2) why it even matters, and 3) that it's no personal attack on Tony or anybody else, only on the cheating. In particular, I want to restate to Tony my thanks to him for all he did the past few years for the SSC and WWC competitions, which enhanced my enjoyment of this site. I address those thanks to Tony wearing the competition runner and scorekeeper hat, acknowledging that he also wore a different hat, that of competitor. These hats are completely separate. Tony: whether more games would be marked solved in the database is irrelevant to this argument. So is the assertion that the database has already been messed up by other people, as we argue against everybody using enhanced methods not any one person. As for how easy or not easy it is to use cards, well... the point is not how easy it is to do. The point is, how much easier does it make it to achieve higher streak lengths using them. Obviously, you are sure it's easier to get the system to credit you with a higher streak this way. Or you wouldn't do it. The fact that this higher streak length is a false one doesn't matter, only that it is higher. A thought experiment: suppose Denny gave you a control to enable the unlimited undo button. (This would eliminate all the difficulties associated with using cards.) And suppose further there were two complete sets of statistics: a set for those who have enabled the undo button and another set for those who don't. All your stats would get saved, but you would only show up in the lists for undo-type players. Would you enable the button?

Date: Wed Jan 11 13:55:03 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Since you asked, I will answer. No, I would not use the "unlimited undo button". Such a button would be equivalent to permiting unlimited Replay, imo. I am completely happy with the existing Replay option, which I often use when I lose a game that is winnable. Now I have a question for you, ix: How is it possible to call a person a "cheater" without it being a "personal attack"?? "Name calling" is always personal, imo! Fortunately, I am not a Cheater, so I am not seriously offended. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Date: Wed Jan 11 14:00:51 2017
User: joeygray
Message:
Yes. I am sorry, it's hard not to take it personally. Sigh. I sincerely don't understand how you don't see, as apparently you don't, how using cards is not exactly equivalent to unlimited undo. The exact same thing.

Date: Wed Jan 11 15:07:42 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Btw, TN, I think some (most) stopped playing the "Winnable Challenge" because the spreadsheet doesn't save each players best ever result!! I remember that CubicSprock was the first player to pass 1 million, but I don't know what his best-ever score was! Do you?

Date: Wed Jan 11 15:40:37 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Tony, that competition was clearly set up, and designed to be, a continuously-running event - just like Denny's "Current" tabulations. The point being to keep people involved and playing. And of course joey's point is exactly right, as stated many times previously. When you employ cards, or other external aids, it is *exactly* like having unlimited re-dos. You are trying different routes, until you find one that works. That may be the most puzzling part of all this - how you can't see that critical equivalency. My personal opinion is that you long ago "rationalized" that methodology, to the extent it got completely inculcated into your playing persona. But that's just my theory.

Date: Wed Jan 11 15:42:58 2017
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
Well, this certainly got hijacked.

Date: Wed Jan 11 15:54:32 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:
No; it's still precisely on target.

Date: Wed Jan 11 23:17:56 2017
User: ix
Message:
tony, you misunderstood me, i was saying that you are *not* a cheater. you disclose yourself.

Date: Thu Jan 12 00:55:14 2017
User: Mastermind
Message:
In the first post of this thread jacknine asked 'Is there a way for me to find the number of the game I'm playing?'. After the usual meandering of the thread ix replied 'no'. ix is correct to the extent that there is no link available which will give the information by a few clicks.If,however,one is desperate to find the game number he is playing and has loads of time to do so, he can. Regulars,of course,would know about it and I am not elaborating.

Date: Thu Jan 12 01:45:15 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:
I am a "regular", I think, yet I do not know about it - unless you are speaking of "that which cannot be spoken of"..... But I'm glad you're not elaborating.