Subject: question 2
Date: Sun May 21 13:15:48 2017
User: wasjun
Message:I have uploaded the picture. It went around 6x5 winnable variante.I think this layout is unsolvable ???
Date: Sun May 21 16:35:41 2017
User: CubicSprock
Message:Hard to make out the cards. Why not just give up so you can post the game number and we can easily access it?
Date: Sun May 21 16:39:59 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:question 3:
Are you a believer in allowing yourself to use "external aids" in solving deals? We can tell that you have made 0 moves in the game. That could mean that you try to 'mentally' solve the game in your head before starting............or it could mean that you have been trying 'all' methods, which some may be suspicious of since you've taken this method of asking for help.
Date: Sun May 21 18:11:12 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:I agree with CS that it is difficult to read the cards! Here is how I read them:
8c,... Jd,.... 4d,..... Ad,... 6c,...... 6h
9h,... 6s,... Qd,...... 5s,... 3c,...... 7s
5c,... Ac,..... Jc,.... 10h,... 8h,... 10c
4h,... 10s,... 8s,... 10d,... 3d,.... 8d
Kc,... 4c,..... 2h,..... Kd,... 9s,..... 9d
As,... 7h,..... 2s,..... Kh,... Qc,... Ah
6d,... 7d,.... 5h,...... Jh,... 3s,..... 7c
4s,..... Js,..... 9c,..... Qs,... 2c,.... Ks
3h,... Qh,... 5d,..... 2d
This is an interesting (difficult) game!
I'm about 95% certain that this game is winnable (I double checked, but could still have made a stupid mistake)!
However, I'm reluctant to post my solution here! Because of my shorthand notation, it is difficult for me to count the number of moves, but I make it out to be more than 80, which would be a lot of typing!! GOOD LUCK!
Date: Mon May 22 02:59:07 2017
User: wasjun
Message:Thanks to Titanic Tony. I just wanted to know if the game is solvable. The solution I do not need. And I do not use any programs to win. Everything comes out of the head
Date: Sat May 27 04:21:28 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:Yep, wasjun, your game was winnable:
Congratulations! You Win,
Game #: 6x5 27945,
Game stats: 4/1/25.00%,
Difficulty: 10,
Elapsed: 9:04,
Moves: 80,
Card moves: 203.
Date: Sat May 27 22:21:45 2017
User: Punster
Message:Nide going, Tony.....nice of you to help wasjun out !
Date: Sat May 27 23:09:06 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:wasjun gave up and took the loss on that game ~24 hrs. before Tony posted - after only 3:55. What? A player goes to all this trouble and gives up after 3:55? Very suspicious.
And what if Tony had somehow enabled wasjun to extend his streak? Would you support such?
Maybe I'm just too idealistic....
Date: Sun May 28 03:30:40 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:"3:55"??? It was more like 2 weeks! Obviously he had the game was paused!
Date: Sun May 28 08:48:32 2017
User: Mastermind
Message:In 10x2 CS was close to 400 games and lost an easy one.(When he lost it the stat was 10/9).He took it on his chin and moved on. Glad we have such people playing here.
Date: Sun May 28 10:14:26 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:Most players "move on" when they lose, imo! Maybe a few give up and never come back!
I play a fair amount (10,329 hours at last count), and I have lost 2,721 games, which means that, on average, I lose a game every 3.8 hours of playing time! Some days I don't lose any (yea!), and other days I lose several (boo!). Just last night I lost a w13x0 game (8469/10) that had never been lost, and is now 63/64 (boo!!!).
Date: Sun May 28 10:53:37 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:""3:55"??? It was more like 2 weeks! Obviously he had the game was paused!"
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Obviously, that was my point. Even tho wasjun said "everything comes out of the head"........I would argue that using cards, or a whiteboard, OR asking others for *any* kind of help is tantamount to "using an external aid" - *even tho* one *could* say that those actions "comes out of the head". Although he noted that he does not "use any programs", since he specified that particular external aid, I think one would legitimately wonder if he uses those others. I'm not saying he did - but both that, and his enormous streaks in the winnable variants, AND pausing the game for a long period of time all adds up to extremely suspicious circumstances. That's all I'm saying.
Date: Sun May 28 12:28:37 2017
User: d164280
Message:My longest game took 6 days. I'd look at it for 15 or 20 min, not see anything, try again the next day. Finally on the sixth day I saw something I hadn't seen in the days prior. I solved it giving me a tremendous feeling of accomplishment. Final stats 10x1 26727-8 1/1 3:05.28. I used no aids and the 3hrs was the actual or true time I used to solve it. If nothing else wasjun cheats the time. And Tony , you gave us your official time and misses, but that's not your actual or true time and misses. Add in all the time and misses while decking. Now what is your true time and misses?
Date: Sun May 28 13:15:36 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:Probably way less than the number of "misses" you encounter mentally, imo! Using cards is mainly to facilitate taking notes! Without cards (and notes), when I get to move, say 25, I can no longer remember how I got there! Using cards (and notes) usually takes about half an hour, but can take up to 2 days (like you, go away and come back later). Way less than 1% of my games have been won using cards. If you want, you can add 1,000 hours to my total playing time.
Date: Sun May 28 16:43:44 2017
User: Punster
Message:Hey TN, wasjun did say this early in this discussion =>
Date: Mon May 22 02:59:07 2017
User: wasjun
Message:
Thanks to Titanic Tony. I just wanted to know if the game is solvable. The solution I do not need. And I do not use any programs to win. Everything comes out of the head
I think you're reading too much into this....imo. :-)
Date: Sun May 28 17:05:09 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:Well, I made reference to that very thing in my last post. Ok, so why leave a game open for 2 weeks (or however long it actually was), and yet only have it show as 3:55 playing time? What was he doing during that time, besides asking for help to make sure it was solvable?
I like Mastermind's way of saying it so very nicely.
Date: Sun May 28 22:01:57 2017
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:As someone who does stare at tough games for a long time before I make a move, I have to agree this suggests cards are used. Why? Because to have that short a time, you can't look at the cards on the screen. I was going to say that maybe wasjun saves the game after looking but...I mean...how long could you look if you are looking for two weeks. How do you even write down all the cards in that time and then come back in two weeks and finish that fast? I guess that is possible...just write it down very quickly and don't open it up again until you are ready to solve.
The server times out after fifteen minutes of staring at cards but the screen stays until you click on it. That's why the "staring at a game" method usually leads to times that are a multiple of fifteen minutes plus the time to solve it once you have a solution.
I just don't see another option. I note that wasjun only said they don't use software. No denial of card use. So probably they do.
James
Date: Mon May 29 02:18:30 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:I think that if wasjun were using cards, he would have won the game!! And, in much less than 2 weeks!!
Almost certainly he saves the game while he stares at it! Here's how:
1) Alt-PrtSc,
2) Save,
3) In Paint, Ctrl-V.
Date: Tue May 30 03:32:56 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:To avoid staying connected to the server for 2 weeks?? It has to be what wasjun did, imo!
Date: Tue May 30 09:40:54 2017
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:He/she wouldn't have stayed connected for more than 15 minutes. Why do this? That's going to a lot of trouble to...what....not have your time calculated correctly? Why not just stare at the screen like any normal Freecell streak addict?
Date: Tue May 30 09:53:53 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:Why WASTE 15 minutes of server time (x 1000's of players) just for the sake of a correct game time?? Plus, I have no idea how wifi works (in different places around the world), but a lot of players may be paying for that connection time!???
Furthermore, why WASTE anything??? Are you adament about recycling? I am!
Date: Tue May 30 12:01:00 2017
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:You aren't wasting anything. The reason why it stops after 15 minutes is the server hasn't done anything in that time. That's because you sent no messages to it...hence it sent nothing back. Finally it cuts you off from communicating until you log back in, just because it thinks you are gone. You haven't been using up any of its time.
Seems like its real purpose is to screw up Denny's system of keeping track of gameplay length. Which is flawed, clearly. But why mess it up further by going through all that trouble?
Date: Tue May 30 12:48:56 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:You may be correct.
I am no longer up-to-date with Communication Science, But I'm pretty sure that it used to be true that your computer sent and received packets, whether or not "you" were sending anything! I used to know how to see the sent/received packet count, but it has been more than 15 years since I cared about that sort of thing!
I have the distinct impression that what is going on in the "background", exceeds everything that I do "on purpose"!
Also, btw, I NEVER have to log back in, unless I have logged out, which I do about once a week!!
Date: Tue May 30 13:08:19 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:.......none of which gives an explanation as to why wasjun would hold a game open for only 3:55 for two weeks - unless he was trying to solve the game "offline". It's not absolute "proof" - but it's by far the most likely explanation. Occam's razor.
Date: Tue May 30 16:44:42 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:No, no, no, he spent 2 weeks thinking about it, and when he couldn't get it, he spent 3:55 on one final attempt, before giving up!!! Would you have been happier if he had given up without the final try, and the game time was, say, 0:15?? I think that CS says somewhere that he sometimes loses games in 15 seconds.
Date: Tue May 30 17:48:44 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:So......during these 2 weeks he was "thinking about it", how was he viewing the game? If you're postulating that he paused the game, it's no longer visible. Part of it is, but not enough to be able to try and solve a difficult deal. Did he memorize the deal in his head and mentally maneuver the cards entirely that way? Possible, but utterly improbable.
Again, *how* was he "thinking about it"?
Date: Tue May 30 17:57:55 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:Gee, TN, I just explained above how you save the game, and past it into paint, where it is fully visible!!!
Date: Tue May 30 18:38:42 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:But why go to that trouble if you're not going to 'manipulate' the deal (i.e., try to solve it)? You seem to be awfully defensive on this. As a defender (and even proponent) of external aids, it sure seems as if you're defending someone as an ally, who may agree with your 'techniques'. If he has nothing to hide or be ashamed of, why does he need defending?
Date: Tue May 30 19:12:51 2017
User: TitanicTony
Message:I'm not defending him -- he has already defended himself: "pure brain power"!!
I believe him, and I accept that he is a much better player than me! If wasjun were using any kind of "external aids", he would NOT HAVE LOST THE GAME, imo!! QED!!
AND, I don't need an ally; I can advocate using cards ALL BY MY TINY SELF!
To not use cards means losing games unnecessarily! It is me against the dealer! And, I have won A LOT of never-won games!!!!!
If I was somehow not allowed to use cards, then I wouldn't be playing the (hard) variants that require them! And, I will certainly never be a tournament player!
So there! As far as I am concerned, YOU LOSE this argument!!!!!!!!
Date: Wed May 31 03:02:51 2017
User: TNmountainman
Message:Oh......you so overwhelm me with your vast superiority in the use of exclamation points. Bravo(!).
And yes, I'm adamant about recycling - so we can agree on something.
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