Subject: Trips back

Date: Thu Sep 21 19:11:28 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
I have long had this feeling that I am missing some sort of closure because I have been away from Vietnam for 50 years. Yes, it was 50 years ago that I came home, April 30. I have seen film about Vietnam today, but it's just not the same as what I am missing. The closest is an hour-long film recently shown of the return trip by three American servicemen, who were friends and "brothers." One of the three, Chris Moore, an African-American radio and media personality in Pittsburgh, hosts the visit with his two friends. They meet many elements of Vietnam life, including "Friends of Danang," which is an organization of people, many of them Vets, but also doctors, and even one American woman whose father was killed in action there. She needed closure, too. She had never known him, except by photos and stories. They come face to face with the after-effects of a war in somebody else's homeland. But they are also confronted by friendliness and beauty. Watching the documentary was very visceral. To me, it shines on a different plane than the multi-part Vietnam War documentary being shown on PBS. As the visit wound down, I was struck by something said by an American man at the 48-minute mark. I immediately thought of North Korea, and how we may be making all the wrong decisions. He is the bearded white man sitting with the three black vets, at a table in the cabin of a tour boat. on Ha Long Bay. I think he was an attack fighter-bomber pilot. It took a visceral experience to a new level. (he said in part): "...but if you are understanding and you empathize with others..." You don't have to be a vet to appreciate and "feel" this trip made by three American GI's. (When I returned, I was still in favor of the war, and had a bit of a hard time dealing with anti-war activists.) As in so many other ways, I have grown. They were right. Oh. Chris makes another point toward the end: "They say that veterans make the best pacifists." In large part, I believe him. A lot of war-enthusiasts have never served, in my experience.

Link: In Country

Date: Fri Sep 22 16:03:27 2017
User: hotnurse
Message:
So, Joe, are you watching the Ken Burns ten-part series? I am on epi #4 and I am learning, for the first time, what the war was really about. My brother was there for 18 mo. with the Air Force but didn't come close to action (he was a telecommunications tech). This has been an eye-opener for me. Thanks to you and all of other VN vets here for your service.

Date: Sat Oct 7 09:32:27 2017
User: parapraxis
Message:
I'm a bit confused here. So, the both of you are watching the Vietnam Doc. and changing your mind about the beliefs you held ? 45 years later? I seem to remember BOTH of you backing President Bush in his assault on the middle east that has turned into a complete debacle. I guess you'll finally get it in another 45 years when Ken Burns presents his Iraq Documentary? Geez.

Date: Sat Oct 7 16:47:09 2017
User: ix
Message:
Joe, I appreciate your civility and open mindedness. You are a good dude.

Date: Sat Oct 7 17:11:54 2017
User: ix
Message:
I feel compelled to add hottie to my list of people I respect. I've been a bit of a dickhead to you personally but I regret it and have apologized to you for it. I just wanted to say that I appreciate you and mostly others who post without hate and that it makes this a better place. Joe and you have NEVER posted hateful things and that is wonderful. Thank you. Should I even post this? Well I did.

Date: Mon Oct 9 05:56:38 2017
User: bingbong
Message:
So let me get this straight parapraxis Are you saying that Joe is not allowed to change his mind about his beliefs.. A lot of us change our views about a lot of things as years past... That makes us human By the way hope you are well IX I have never had an argument with you lol one of your good mates from way back ....... ( I am someone you know very well but I use another name on here I just started playing again after a few years away from this )

Date: Tue Oct 10 19:21:47 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
prax, you posted this above: "I'm a bit confused here. So, the both of you are watching the Vietnam Doc. and changing your mind about the beliefs you held ? 45 years later? I seem to remember BOTH of you backing President Bush in his assault on the middle east that has turned into a complete debacle. I guess you'll finally get it in another 45 years when Ken Burns presents his Iraq Documentary? Geez. " What makes you think I am changing my mind about the Vietnam War NOW? My perspective has been fluid for decades. but since early-on I became convinced that Vietnam was a huge America mistake. As for Iraq? I already changed my mind there. It was a mistake worse than Vietnam. Back in the GW Bush era, in discussions in here, I did post as a conservative. But frankly, I have grown. No longer the rock-solid (rock headed?) conservative I was then. Not really a liberal, just somebody whose worldview has matured. If you can't grasp that, then perhaps you could also stand a little growth as well.

Date: Tue Oct 10 19:31:27 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
By the way, prax, one thing that set me more strongly against anti-war activists back then was they also displayed a lack of maturity. Especially in how they treated guys who just wanted to come home and resume a peaceful life. Everything was black-and-white, we-are-good-they-are-baby killers. Many of them treated Nam Vets horribly. They seemed incapable of separating the soldiers from the military and the government, and separating the vast majority of soldiers who served honorably from the very small fragment of My Lai types. I take it you never served. That's okay. But try putting yourself into the shoes of others, instead of spewing sanctimony. :(

Date: Tue Oct 10 20:01:38 2017
User: hotnurse
Message:
Thanks, ix. I don't appreciate those who hate when they don't even know someone. Even after "meeting" there may also be circumstances for their behavior to make you want to clobber them. None of us are perfect. Btw, I hope to meet you someday yet. The only time I actually talked with you was when Joe called at the lunch that you and he shared and I can sitting on the pot at Walmart. Ok, tmi.

Date: Tue Oct 10 23:53:30 2017
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Tip of the hat to Snowy and hottie. Snowy, I could go on and on, but you know what I'd say: history, bad beginnings, growing respect, common ground, etc etc. As for hottie, hopefully Filthy can get this back into the proper perspective.

Date: Wed Oct 11 01:36:52 2017
User: dcn21
Message:
Well said, Snowguy. I'm Canadian but I believed in the Vietnam war back then and, of course, have long since changed my view. I feel for those that come back damaged, so many have been irreparably scarred by their experiences in war zones. I feel that anyone who serves his country and risks his or her life should be given a pension for life, but I suppose that would cost way too much.

Date: Wed Oct 11 19:56:32 2017
User: parapraxis
Message:
Snowguy, You state "Back in the GW Bush era, in discussions in here, I did post as a conservative. But frankly, I have grown. No longer the rock-solid (rock headed?) conservative I was then. Not really a liberal, just somebody whose worldview has matured. If you can't grasp that, then perhaps you could also stand a little growth as well. " Back in those days, when I frequented this site, you, and your buds here, gave Liberals like myself an extremely rough time, even censoring me at times. Although for MOST of that time, YOU were respectful and tried for fair discussion, you did support your like minded friends, even when they were rude, or downright nasty. Now you admit you were wrong, but still need to throw in a veiled insult? I can grasp that someone has the ability to change their world view, I even applaud the fact that you have. In this case I don't need to change my world view, as I was correct in my assessment of the Bush doctrine. But more importantly, I tried to impart that knowledge to you, yet was ridiculed for doing so. Your inclusion of this line, "(When I returned, I was still in favor of the war, and had a bit of a hard time dealing with anti-war activists.) As in so many other ways, I have grown. They were right." seems to point out that your change of mind was a more recent one. If I misunderstood that, I apologize.

Date: Thu Oct 12 21:07:44 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
Apology accepted. Because you were, indeed, wrong. What brought on the "veiled insult" was your prior assumption that, even after my explanation of both my position and the history of it, you still assumed that I am a "latecomer to reason." Similar to a lot of your posts back then, that was quite off-putting. Prax, you were not squeaky-clean back then. You threw insults with the best (or worst) of us. As a Moderator, I had to do what I had to do, given the postings on the page. Let's let it go. Vietnam is behind us, and The Vietnamese and Americans are getting along fine these days. Time for us, too.

Date: Thu Oct 12 21:11:49 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
By the way, prax, this was also off-putting, and in retrospect, this veiled insult was probably have been the impetus for my "veiled insult" "I guess you'll finally get it in another 45 years when Ken Burns presents his Iraq Documentary? Geez. " ---------------------------------------------------------------- (Geez.)

Date: Thu Oct 12 21:16:23 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
Thanks to ix, hottie, dcn21, bingbong, Buzz, and anybody I may have missed for saying something nice, or at least for acknowledging that I have a view and I am entitled to it, without condemnation. That was nice. And yes, hottie, ix is a very fine man. I enjoyed his company, as my wife and I enjoyed yours.

Date: Thu Oct 12 21:46:19 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
I was just watching a round table of vets talking about the war, on the same PBS station. It had been filmed 20 years ago, but it had been moderated by the same Chris Moore. Very interesting exchange of experiences among them. But, I decided to pause the program, because I thought of something. Way above, in the first post, I laid a lot of stuff out there. An awful lot. Why did you have to climb all over it, prax? Back to the program. And yes, hottie, I am watching the Ken Burns multi-part series too, but I am way behind the curve on that one. Frankly, it's history. It's just not the same.

Date: Thu Oct 12 22:01:24 2017
User: Snowguy
Message:
At the 18-minute part of the program I am watching, this white former sergeant said, he is thinking all the time about a black soldier who gave his life on a hill. (Frankly, he is one reason others survived.) The platoon was moistly white. They never recovered his body, The former sergeant's blurt started a really rich discussion of what it meant to be both black and a soldier in our army, and in combat with team, members who were like brothers. but of course, reality still awaited them back in our country. He said, had (the black soldier) made it back to America, he would not have had the same rights as (the former sergeant.) "I'd be picked for a job before he would" after return. (The round table was two white vets and three black vets.)