Subject: for tn, mostly

Date: Tue Apr 17 01:24:05 2018
User: ix
Message:
are you as frustrated as i am by the lack of "stem" knowledge in general? from the attached link, an article by national geographic no less is the following statement: >>The "winners"—saltwater crocodiles—slammed their jaws shut with 3,700 pounds per square inch (psi), or 16,460 newtons, of bite force. psi is pressure not force, pressure is force per area. you can generate thousands of pounds per square inch by pushing a sewing needle against glass with a few pounds of force. newtons are a measure of force. how is it that anyone graduates from high school without knowing this. how is it that someone at nat geo writes and publishes an article that includes a "conversion" of psi to newtons. AAARGH.

Link: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/03/120315-crocodiles-bite-force-erickson-science-plos-one-strongest/

Date: Tue Apr 17 09:04:08 2018
User: outskirts
Message:
What, is TN the only one with a brain? Are we not all, at least, hs graduates? Does a high intelligence level equate to snobbery?

Date: Tue Apr 17 09:08:01 2018
User: outskirts
Message:
Yes I get it though. There is gross ineptitude all around. You'd expect better.

Date: Tue Apr 17 09:36:50 2018
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:
But...newtons are a measure of force. So the sentence talks about the pressure then converts it to the force. The "conversion" would only require multiplying by the area of the crocodiles mouth and then actually converting from pounds to newtons. Seems like not such an egregious error to me. Still, there are many examples of your larger point. This is from Rolling Stone, written by Bill McKibben: "If the pictures of those towering wildfires in Colorado haven't convinced you, or the size of your AC bill this summer, here are some hard numbers about climate change: June broke or tied 3,215 high-temperature records across the United States. That followed the warmest May on record for the Northern Hemisphere – the 327th consecutive month in which the temperature of the entire globe exceeded the 20th-century average, the odds of which occurring by simple chance were 3.7 x 10-99, a number considerably larger than the number of stars in the universe." Does he not know what "odds" are? Or does he think a decimal that starts with 98 0's is a large number??

Link: Lost respect for Bill

Date: Tue Apr 17 11:56:32 2018
User: ix
Message:
i see how the title came out wrong, sorry bout that, TN just came to mind. i was not intentionally implying anything.

Date: Tue Apr 17 12:26:49 2018
User: ix
Message:
they seem to be converting pounds per square inch to newtons per square inch, so maybe they *are* using the area of the teeth. but they are still calling it force, which is my beef. also, who uses newtons per square inch?

Date: Tue Apr 17 12:53:38 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Gee.........I don't know where to start, ix. I could likely write several pages on this, and then many goldfish would be dead. First of all, 'yes', in answer to your question. "Curiouser"...............in this hillbilly world hereabouts, at least, "STEM" has been slowly being transformed into "STEAM", with the addition of "arts". I've got a very mixed reaction to that. After all, the 4 components of STEM are mostly left-brain-related, whereas A is mostly right-brain. (And I know, it's far from being that simple.) I react to that two ways: 1) ok - that's good, or, that's fine; we need more art education and even knowledge of the history of art (and I could elaborate extensively but won't); 2) it's reminiscent (maybe to me only) of the axiom "People who are able to do something well can do that thing for a living, while people who are not able to do anything that well, teach." (George Bernard Shaw???) NOT that it's at all the same thing - but that it only reminds me in this sort of way.........those that 'can't' do math and science, do art. Obviously ridiculously simplistic - and totally false, for that matter. But that's what pops into my mind. Almost an "allowance". And it goes back to the left-brain/right-brain dichotomy. *In general*, most people are superior at one or the other. **In general**. To further defend myself here and not step on the toes of the artists in our community, I am well aware that many artists are clearly among the greatest geniuses of human history. Just no doubt about that. And I think that's still true. But in my experience, most talented artists I've encountered can't deal with the Pythagorean Theorem, for example, not to mention the difference between mass, weight, and force. But that's just a difference between brain wiring, greatly simplified - or on what they've chosen to learn or expose themselves to. And on the other hand/side of the brain, if one were to add together *all* my artistic abilities, one would likely get a negative number. (Some of those who know me would disagree, but that's my story/math and I'm stickin' to it.) But I think I've digressed a bit too far..... I was just delving into my own psyche about that stuff. Going back to purely STEM, I've been around this world long enough to see changes in this realm, and seen the pendulum swing both ways. I actually think the situation is better now than it was 5 or 10 years ago - at the top. But possibly even worse at the 'bottom', if'n you know what I mean. I'm continually astonished at cashiers not being able to make change without resorting to a register, as one of many examples I'm sure we can all spout. Students that I encounter coming out of high school nowadays are maybe a bit better in some aspects of science and math, but the *overall* average *person* seems to be worse on those things. NOT being political here, but two of our most recent three presidents have to a large extent been almost, or nearly completely, *anti*-science. I think most here can do *that* math and know who I'm talking about. And that actually hurts STEM, even tho it may not necessarily be easy to connect the dots directly, depending on how intimately one knows those facts. As a former(?) member of the National Geographic Society (I think they kicked me out for not paying my dues - but my card actually got me out of a dicey border crossing in a remote jungle location once upon a time), I'm quite disappointed in that force terminology. I remember seeing that article, or a version of it, when it appeared. And I see that sort of thing all the time. One that's a particular irksome thing to me is this fairly recent, growing use of such phrases as "4 times smaller than brand X", or "4 times less". Of course what they mean is 1/4 as large, or 1/4 as much. If something is only *1* times smaller than brand X, it ceases to exist. "4 times smaller" means we've gone deep into anti-matter territory. The first couple of times I heard that, or read it, in ads, I tried to correct the source. To say I got blank ears would be an understatement. So I gave up on that fool's errand. And that's reminiscent of james's example above. I'll stop the rambling with that scree.......but I'll also agree with outskirts somewhat. There are several brilliant people who post here - certainly several who seem more gifted than myself. And we have at the very least 2 additional others who teach, or have taught, math. And beyond that, behold mrbob's wife, Jean, for just one example. Her artistic talents seem extraordinary to me, but as she's related, she was almost the opposite of mrbob, who was a math guy, as I recall. And again, no one take offense; I'm *greatly* generalizing here. I think Michelangelo (not the one who used to be on this site, but it may be true for him, too) and Leonardo were pretty good at both math *and* art. And sorry, ix; I know you didn't want all this....

Date: Tue Apr 17 13:11:19 2018
User: ix
Message:
i'll apologize for the title once again, i was just thinking of you when i posted, meaning it was directed at you but anyone else should feel free to pile on.

Date: Tue Apr 17 13:12:10 2018
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:
I see that they really did just convert from psi to Nsi. I stand corrected. That is annoying. J

Date: Tue Apr 17 13:31:52 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:
STEAM: Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts and Mathematics.

Date: Tue Apr 17 20:20:51 2018
User: olblue
Message:
So....how's everyone's weather?

Date: Tue Apr 17 20:23:04 2018
User: outskirts
Message:
Well FYI... I had a *very* hard time choosing between art and math as a major! Just FYI!

Date: Tue Apr 17 20:35:06 2018
User: ix
Message:
46 right now, snowed across the valley last night but not here. spring is supposed to be here any day now but right now its held up in customs apparently.

Date: Tue Apr 17 21:47:27 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Believe it or not, snowed here yesterday, too. And *of course* you did, outskirts. That's what being an outskirt is all about, right?

Date: Tue Apr 17 21:49:24 2018
User: BuzzClik
Message:
TN's lament of the state of education aside (not that I disagree): Brian Handwerk, the author of the National Geographic article, is a journalist. A writer. A guy who puts the A in STEAM and probably doesn't know Newtons from neutrons. The scientist who performed the test on croc bites is an expert in biomechanics. Dr. Erickson's papers on similar topics, published in Nature and Scientific American, had no difficulty separating force from pressure. My guess is that Erickson gave the correct data in the correct units to Handwerk who dropped the units of area in putting pen to paper. Note to Dr. Erickson: demand to see the final copy before it goes to print.

Date: Wed Apr 18 13:38:18 2018
User: outskirts
Message:
TN: you get me Been in the mid 40s here also, even during the day. Kind of freaky cold, but nice. It warms up in the afternoon.