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Subject: What does level 5 difficulty means?
Date: Mon Oct 28 08:03:53 2013
User: andaronjim
Message:
Please tell us what level 5 difficulty means? Please tell us if level 5 difficulty is easier than level 6? Is level 6 easier than 7? You are getting the idea? Why are some level 5 difficutly very low success(30% or less), while some 8's and 9's are 100% win rate? Dont give me the answer that more people will fail the level 5 because they dont know how to win it, those level 5's ARE more difficult.
User: andaronjim
Message:
Please tell us what level 5 difficulty means? Please tell us if level 5 difficulty is easier than level 6? Is level 6 easier than 7? You are getting the idea? Why are some level 5 difficutly very low success(30% or less), while some 8's and 9's are 100% win rate? Dont give me the answer that more people will fail the level 5 because they dont know how to win it, those level 5's ARE more difficult.
Date: Mon Oct 28 08:31:38 2013
User: roo
Message:
My theory is that, in the 8x4 variant, level 5 records many more game losses than it should because people don't concentrate as much as they would at level 8 or 9, say. Being by definition a new streak they haven't yet invested much time in it.
User: roo
Message:
My theory is that, in the 8x4 variant, level 5 records many more game losses than it should because people don't concentrate as much as they would at level 8 or 9, say. Being by definition a new streak they haven't yet invested much time in it.
Date: Mon Oct 28 08:55:11 2013
User: andaronjim
Message:
That didnt answer the 1st 3 questions. Are level 5s supposed to be easier than level 6s? Are level 6s supposed to be easier than level 7s?
User: andaronjim
Message:
That didnt answer the 1st 3 questions. Are level 5s supposed to be easier than level 6s? Are level 6s supposed to be easier than level 7s?
Date: Mon Oct 28 09:18:18 2013
User: BuzzClik
Message:
What a fascinating series of questions! But why do I have an overwhelming feeling of deja vu?
User: BuzzClik
Message:
What a fascinating series of questions! But why do I have an overwhelming feeling of deja vu?
Date: Mon Oct 28 09:31:35 2013
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Absolutely stunning. *My* newest theory is that either: a) the whole concept of different levels of games is merely a construct of Denny's designed to ferret out deep psychological issues in us players......*OR* b) the nick known as "andironjim" is a constuct of Denny's to do the same thing to the rest of us.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Absolutely stunning. *My* newest theory is that either: a) the whole concept of different levels of games is merely a construct of Denny's designed to ferret out deep psychological issues in us players......*OR* b) the nick known as "andironjim" is a constuct of Denny's to do the same thing to the rest of us.
Date: Mon Oct 28 09:39:59 2013
User: Dr.Ruth
Message:
It's kind of like that size 22 woman who still thinks she wears size 5 panties.
User: Dr.Ruth
Message:
It's kind of like that size 22 woman who still thinks she wears size 5 panties.
Date: Mon Oct 28 10:29:40 2013
User: andaronjim
Message:
No algorithim to set the record straight, to adjust the harder level 5s to a higher level, same with the easier 7s and up to get them down to the easier 5s. That could take work, and we all know that is a dirty word to some people.
User: andaronjim
Message:
No algorithim to set the record straight, to adjust the harder level 5s to a higher level, same with the easier 7s and up to get them down to the easier 5s. That could take work, and we all know that is a dirty word to some people.
Date: Mon Oct 28 11:05:36 2013
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Very nice! We have a website where we get a fantastic product completely free of charge, and you call the site developer lazy because you have an issue with the assignment of difficulty levels.
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Very nice! We have a website where we get a fantastic product completely free of charge, and you call the site developer lazy because you have an issue with the assignment of difficulty levels.
Date: Mon Oct 28 11:32:04 2013
User: Belle
Message:
I've often found level 5 games to be the most challenging....especially in 7 X 4.
User: Belle
Message:
I've often found level 5 games to be the most challenging....especially in 7 X 4.
Date: Mon Oct 28 11:46:44 2013
User: Dr.Ruth
Message:
If you keep telling that woman to buy some bigger panties, she will completely close shop. And she will never buy bigger panties. True.
User: Dr.Ruth
Message:
If you keep telling that woman to buy some bigger panties, she will completely close shop. And she will never buy bigger panties. True.
Date: Mon Oct 28 12:38:16 2013
User: FilthyMcNasty
Message:
An interesting experiment is to take the audio from one of Dr. Ruth's television shows and play it over the top of your favorite adult program, say ... Debbie Does Dallas or Deep Throat (in a similar manner of Dark Side of the Moon and Wizard of Oz). The result is totally hilarious but it certainly kills the mood.
User: FilthyMcNasty
Message:
An interesting experiment is to take the audio from one of Dr. Ruth's television shows and play it over the top of your favorite adult program, say ... Debbie Does Dallas or Deep Throat (in a similar manner of Dark Side of the Moon and Wizard of Oz). The result is totally hilarious but it certainly kills the mood.
Date: Mon Oct 28 16:39:21 2013
User: roo
Message:
andaronjim wrote: "That didnt answer the 1st 3 questions." That's because your final question indicated that you already knew the answers. You were taking the micky as far as I'm concerned.
User: roo
Message:
andaronjim wrote: "That didnt answer the 1st 3 questions." That's because your final question indicated that you already knew the answers. You were taking the micky as far as I'm concerned.
Date: Mon Oct 28 17:03:32 2013
User: capeshores
Message:
Oh,my. I agaree with Buzz on this one. Shame on you for complaining so much, andaronjim.
User: capeshores
Message:
Oh,my. I agaree with Buzz on this one. Shame on you for complaining so much, andaronjim.
Date: Mon Oct 28 19:19:31 2013
User: Pepsi_Max
Message:
All I want to know is... Where is level 1-4 difficulty? Is that for, like, preschoolers? Where do I sign up for that....
User: Pepsi_Max
Message:
All I want to know is... Where is level 1-4 difficulty? Is that for, like, preschoolers? Where do I sign up for that....
Date: Mon Oct 28 19:35:35 2013
User: TNmountainman
Message:
They're available within the "Custom" universe (from the drop-down menu). But be wary of those insidious level 1s which clearly should be level 2 or 3. Which of course begs the question: are level 2s *really* harder than level 1s?
User: TNmountainman
Message:
They're available within the "Custom" universe (from the drop-down menu). But be wary of those insidious level 1s which clearly should be level 2 or 3. Which of course begs the question: are level 2s *really* harder than level 1s?
Date: Mon Oct 28 19:57:29 2013
User: TNmountainman
Message:
True that. Virtually no flat places hereabouts.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
True that. Virtually no flat places hereabouts.
Date: Mon Oct 28 20:26:10 2013
User: hotnurse
Message:
TN, I have found that level 2's are by far more difficult than many level 5's. So I just play the variants without the level 2's included; that solved my problems!
User: hotnurse
Message:
TN, I have found that level 2's are by far more difficult than many level 5's. So I just play the variants without the level 2's included; that solved my problems!
Date: Fri Nov 1 09:13:37 2013
User: Denny
Message:
I just played 8x4-29659 level 1, something I haven't done in a while. Clearly the level ones are undiscovered but I got 1/1/100%. Now, to be clear I was a bit bummed because I actually had to think a couple times and that doesn't seem like a level 1 to me. So maybe this really should have been a level 5. But no one had ever played it to get it ranked. Maybe everything should start out as a level 10? And then levels should just always move around so we all get different mixes of games on our streaks. That would be cool. Oh, except then stats would not have a lot of meaning. Huh. Well, I know after 16 years I'm gonna come up with a better way to solve this than those dumb static difficulty levels. Denny
User: Denny
Message:
I just played 8x4-29659 level 1, something I haven't done in a while. Clearly the level ones are undiscovered but I got 1/1/100%. Now, to be clear I was a bit bummed because I actually had to think a couple times and that doesn't seem like a level 1 to me. So maybe this really should have been a level 5. But no one had ever played it to get it ranked. Maybe everything should start out as a level 10? And then levels should just always move around so we all get different mixes of games on our streaks. That would be cool. Oh, except then stats would not have a lot of meaning. Huh. Well, I know after 16 years I'm gonna come up with a better way to solve this than those dumb static difficulty levels. Denny
Date: Fri Nov 1 09:35:59 2013
User: fjmk
Message:
Hi Folks, I think maybe because the algorithm used by Denny is based on the distribution of the cards in the stack. The more cards with a low number are below (the esay to reach places) and cards with a high number or faces are buried in the stacks the easier the game. And partly this is true. But there are more card characteristics that influence the difficulty: - Even / odd distribution - Red / Black distribution. I think that the very diffcult level 5 games all have oneven distributions on these latter characteristics. You could build these characterics in a new (better?) algorithm. But even then there will be statistical fluctutions in difficulty. But why bother. The game is interesting as it is. A sudden difficult game can wake you up and keep you from the automatic pilot. Kind regard Frank
User: fjmk
Message:
Hi Folks, I think maybe because the algorithm used by Denny is based on the distribution of the cards in the stack. The more cards with a low number are below (the esay to reach places) and cards with a high number or faces are buried in the stacks the easier the game. And partly this is true. But there are more card characteristics that influence the difficulty: - Even / odd distribution - Red / Black distribution. I think that the very diffcult level 5 games all have oneven distributions on these latter characteristics. You could build these characterics in a new (better?) algorithm. But even then there will be statistical fluctutions in difficulty. But why bother. The game is interesting as it is. A sudden difficult game can wake you up and keep you from the automatic pilot. Kind regard Frank
Date: Fri Nov 1 09:47:56 2013
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
Maybe now would be the perfect time to erase all the previous statistics and start all over with a new algorithm. Let's ask PudongPete.
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
Maybe now would be the perfect time to erase all the previous statistics and start all over with a new algorithm. Let's ask PudongPete.
Date: Fri Nov 1 09:53:26 2013
User: cmvk
Message:
Y'all are confusing me. I thought level 5 was easier than 6, which is easier than 7 and so on. Some of your earlier questions seem to suggest the opposite. I must be missing something. Meanwhile, back to what I was doing...on level 8. Yes, I'm showing off.
User: cmvk
Message:
Y'all are confusing me. I thought level 5 was easier than 6, which is easier than 7 and so on. Some of your earlier questions seem to suggest the opposite. I must be missing something. Meanwhile, back to what I was doing...on level 8. Yes, I'm showing off.
Date: Fri Nov 1 10:56:33 2013
User: billyh
Message:
I think fmjk is correct. The most difficulty I have is getting on to automatic pilot and finding I'm up the proverbial with a paddle.
User: billyh
Message:
I think fmjk is correct. The most difficulty I have is getting on to automatic pilot and finding I'm up the proverbial with a paddle.
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:02:39 2013
User: BogStandard
Message:
there are two threads here: should games get relentlessly harder as streaks progress? how to grade games? Any rating could be based on success %. Either way I'm voting with my feet and playing on and on and on ... I don't wear any panties either
User: BogStandard
Message:
there are two threads here: should games get relentlessly harder as streaks progress? how to grade games? Any rating could be based on success %. Either way I'm voting with my feet and playing on and on and on ... I don't wear any panties either
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:10:22 2013
User: free@last
Message:
The simple solution is to stop calling them "difficulty" levels.
User: free@last
Message:
The simple solution is to stop calling them "difficulty" levels.
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:11:15 2013
User: TNmountainman
Message:
.....all of which just continues to show the brilliance of andaronjim as he probes the dark depths of freecell.net's faulty algorithms. Might I suggest a new appellation known as "andaronjimrithms", which would of course detail the 'correct' way to do things?
User: TNmountainman
Message:
.....all of which just continues to show the brilliance of andaronjim as he probes the dark depths of freecell.net's faulty algorithms. Might I suggest a new appellation known as "andaronjimrithms", which would of course detail the 'correct' way to do things?
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:19:02 2013
User: jimmyp
Message:
Criminy, folks, how could this thread have gone on this long without someone pointing out "Difficulty Levels" under "Instructions"?
Link: http://www.freecell.net/f/c/instructions.html#diff
User: jimmyp
Message:
Criminy, folks, how could this thread have gone on this long without someone pointing out "Difficulty Levels" under "Instructions"?
Link: http://www.freecell.net/f/c/instructions.html#diff
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:19:52 2013
User: jimmyp
Message:
And how can someone make a post where he gets confused as to where to put the URL and where to put the link title?
Link: Difficulty Levels
User: jimmyp
Message:
And how can someone make a post where he gets confused as to where to put the URL and where to put the link title?
Link: Difficulty Levels
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:24:14 2013
User: tabts
Message:
Anyone notice that the first game after a streak ends is often lost? I can be tooling along at level 6 or 7, lose, and the first game on level 5 is impossible.
User: tabts
Message:
Anyone notice that the first game after a streak ends is often lost? I can be tooling along at level 6 or 7, lose, and the first game on level 5 is impossible.
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:27:42 2013
User: TNmountainman
Message:
"Criminy, folks, how could this thread have gone on this long without someone pointing out "Difficulty Levels" under "Instructions"?" The easy(?) answer is "because this is the umpteenth time, and umpteenth thread, in which this topic has come up, and so it's really appropriate to have some fun with it".
User: TNmountainman
Message:
"Criminy, folks, how could this thread have gone on this long without someone pointing out "Difficulty Levels" under "Instructions"?" The easy(?) answer is "because this is the umpteenth time, and umpteenth thread, in which this topic has come up, and so it's really appropriate to have some fun with it".
Date: Fri Nov 1 11:50:13 2013
User: SophiaG
Message:
The only thing I’ve been able to observe about that Difficulty number is, it starts at 5 and slowly increases by 1’s over the course of a winning streak. Lose a game and you’re back to 5 and have to start over. Beyond that, no idea. I don’t know why it starts at 5. I don’t know how quickly it progresses from 5 to 6 to 7 etc., and I don’t if the increase depends -only- on the length of the streak, or on the -difficulty- of the games in the streak. (Full disclosure: 8x4 is the only game I play.) Has anybody tried to watch this behaviour? If what I’m saying is true—that Difficulty only increases over the course of a streak—then it CAN’T be a measure of the difficulty of each individual game. Which means it’s -probably- a way to score the entire streak. Besides, there’s only one valid, scientific measure of how hard a single game is, and that’s the winning percentage in the Game Stats. You might disagree with this, because we’ve all lost games that score 90% and won games that feel easy but score 70%. But the winning percentage simply says that the AVERAGE player wins THIS game 9 times of 10, and THAT game only 7 out of 10. The second must be harder than the first. I’d like hear whether anybody has ever seen Difficulty DECREASE in the middle of the streak. If that’s ever been observed, then it would blow my theory. But if it only every increases, then we have a useful fact to work with. Of course, Denny could simply tell us, but that would be too easy, woudn’t it?
User: SophiaG
Message:
The only thing I’ve been able to observe about that Difficulty number is, it starts at 5 and slowly increases by 1’s over the course of a winning streak. Lose a game and you’re back to 5 and have to start over. Beyond that, no idea. I don’t know why it starts at 5. I don’t know how quickly it progresses from 5 to 6 to 7 etc., and I don’t if the increase depends -only- on the length of the streak, or on the -difficulty- of the games in the streak. (Full disclosure: 8x4 is the only game I play.) Has anybody tried to watch this behaviour? If what I’m saying is true—that Difficulty only increases over the course of a streak—then it CAN’T be a measure of the difficulty of each individual game. Which means it’s -probably- a way to score the entire streak. Besides, there’s only one valid, scientific measure of how hard a single game is, and that’s the winning percentage in the Game Stats. You might disagree with this, because we’ve all lost games that score 90% and won games that feel easy but score 70%. But the winning percentage simply says that the AVERAGE player wins THIS game 9 times of 10, and THAT game only 7 out of 10. The second must be harder than the first. I’d like hear whether anybody has ever seen Difficulty DECREASE in the middle of the streak. If that’s ever been observed, then it would blow my theory. But if it only every increases, then we have a useful fact to work with. Of course, Denny could simply tell us, but that would be too easy, woudn’t it?
Date: Fri Nov 1 12:23:39 2013
User: beddy55
Message:
I think the "difficulty" level increases with the length of the streak. I have not looked at the levels between 5 and 9 but have noticed that it switches to level 10 after getting to a streak of 50. And my 2 cents observation on why higher level games can have better percentages than lower level games: The players doing the higher level games are higher level players. You have many many 'recreational' players attempting games at the lower levels and stay at those levels because their streaks never get very high. As the difficulty level rises the marginal players drop off and you are left with the more skilled players winning more games even though the games are more difficult.
User: beddy55
Message:
I think the "difficulty" level increases with the length of the streak. I have not looked at the levels between 5 and 9 but have noticed that it switches to level 10 after getting to a streak of 50. And my 2 cents observation on why higher level games can have better percentages than lower level games: The players doing the higher level games are higher level players. You have many many 'recreational' players attempting games at the lower levels and stay at those levels because their streaks never get very high. As the difficulty level rises the marginal players drop off and you are left with the more skilled players winning more games even though the games are more difficult.
Date: Fri Nov 1 12:32:07 2013
User: ImGainin
Message:
I pay no attention to the so called difficulty level - they are all difficult or easy for me depending on my state of mind when I'm playing. Panties?? What are panties?
Link: Soar Without Limits
User: ImGainin
Message:
I pay no attention to the so called difficulty level - they are all difficult or easy for me depending on my state of mind when I'm playing. Panties?? What are panties?
Link: Soar Without Limits
Date: Fri Nov 1 13:21:08 2013
User: TNmountainman
Message:
See what I mean, jimmyp? Sometimes "facts" just seem to be of very limited utility, unfortunately. And that's just *one* of the many amazing things one can learn from this amazing site.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
See what I mean, jimmyp? Sometimes "facts" just seem to be of very limited utility, unfortunately. And that's just *one* of the many amazing things one can learn from this amazing site.
Date: Fri Nov 1 13:29:34 2013
User: hotnurse
Message:
I think that beddy55 hits the nail on the head. Also, can we please bring this topic up again in December? I get bored in the winter months.
User: hotnurse
Message:
I think that beddy55 hits the nail on the head. Also, can we please bring this topic up again in December? I get bored in the winter months.
Date: Fri Nov 1 13:38:28 2013
User: Dr.Ruth
Message:
Yeah. We get what Andyjim is saying. But he says it all the time. Over and over. He's had every answer given him, over and over. And he keeps on asking.
User: Dr.Ruth
Message:
Yeah. We get what Andyjim is saying. But he says it all the time. Over and over. He's had every answer given him, over and over. And he keeps on asking.
Date: Fri Nov 1 13:42:47 2013
User: Denny
Message:
SophiaG-- I could tell you but folks above have provided a link to the page where it's all explained. But I'll provide the link again here. And yeah, this has come up so much that I think the topic is being treated with a mix of levity, resignation, and of course some first time gohlee gee whiz Gomer! Denny
Link: Difficulty Levels from the Instructions page here
User: Denny
Message:
SophiaG-- I could tell you but folks above have provided a link to the page where it's all explained. But I'll provide the link again here. And yeah, this has come up so much that I think the topic is being treated with a mix of levity, resignation, and of course some first time gohlee gee whiz Gomer! Denny
Link: Difficulty Levels from the Instructions page here
Date: Fri Nov 1 14:54:35 2013
User: CubicSprock
Message:
it's brought up repeatedly by the same person...and this person is clearly not mentally handicapped based on freecell performance (best streak of 161, 94% win rate in 8x4). Whenever logical responses are given, he simply ignores them, which leads to the conclusion that he is just trolling.
User: CubicSprock
Message:
it's brought up repeatedly by the same person...and this person is clearly not mentally handicapped based on freecell performance (best streak of 161, 94% win rate in 8x4). Whenever logical responses are given, he simply ignores them, which leads to the conclusion that he is just trolling.
Date: Fri Nov 1 15:42:52 2013
User: PharaohCat
Message:
I find the variation in difficulty I now get is interesting enough. I hate games that put you back to square one when you don't win them!
User: PharaohCat
Message:
I find the variation in difficulty I now get is interesting enough. I hate games that put you back to square one when you don't win them!
Date: Fri Nov 1 15:47:18 2013
User: firenzes_mother
Message:
You should try playing the difficult ones without panties.
User: firenzes_mother
Message:
You should try playing the difficult ones without panties.
Date: Fri Nov 1 16:31:52 2013
User: wcwally
Message:
Asked same question years ago. Level is based on position of cards. Level and % solved are mutually exclusive. Could it be something like: Level 5 solved at least 90% of the time; Level 6 solved at least 80% of the time; Level 7 solved at least 70% of the time; Level 8 solved at least 60% of the time; Level 9 solved at least 50% of the time and anything for level 10? Sure. But that would take some major programming, I'm guessing. Would it upset any standings? I don't really think so - just more people finding success. But we need to remember that Denny is a one man show and I'd rather he keep the site working than spend the time needed to make low stringers like myself have an ego boost being able to have a longer string of wins.
User: wcwally
Message:
Asked same question years ago. Level is based on position of cards. Level and % solved are mutually exclusive. Could it be something like: Level 5 solved at least 90% of the time; Level 6 solved at least 80% of the time; Level 7 solved at least 70% of the time; Level 8 solved at least 60% of the time; Level 9 solved at least 50% of the time and anything for level 10? Sure. But that would take some major programming, I'm guessing. Would it upset any standings? I don't really think so - just more people finding success. But we need to remember that Denny is a one man show and I'd rather he keep the site working than spend the time needed to make low stringers like myself have an ego boost being able to have a longer string of wins.
Date: Fri Nov 1 16:33:36 2013
User: taurus77
Message:
A simple way to adjust the difficulty levels would be to take the actual results into account. E.G. if the % of correct solutions are >92%, it is a 5, if <25%, it should be a 9 or higher. etc.
User: taurus77
Message:
A simple way to adjust the difficulty levels would be to take the actual results into account. E.G. if the % of correct solutions are >92%, it is a 5, if <25%, it should be a 9 or higher. etc.
Date: Fri Nov 1 16:43:44 2013
User: firenzes_mother
Message:
Things are much less difficult without panties.
User: firenzes_mother
Message:
Things are much less difficult without panties.
Date: Fri Nov 1 17:31:49 2013
User: TNmountainman
Message:
"Level is based on position of cards." Now we're getting somewhere. I *knew* there was something I was overlooking. I'm with hotnurse - we need to have this topic at least once a month - as if.......
User: TNmountainman
Message:
"Level is based on position of cards." Now we're getting somewhere. I *knew* there was something I was overlooking. I'm with hotnurse - we need to have this topic at least once a month - as if.......
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