Subject: What does level 5 difficulty means?
Date: Tue Jan 29 04:39:26 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:I know what you're saying, but is it "mean" if it's WAY over his head, and he doesn't even recognize it? It's kinda akin to a tree falling in the forest doesn't make a sound if no one's there to hear it (which of course we know isn't true, but just as an analogy). He's clearly oblivious, so I'm not hurting his feelings. If it did, he probably wouldn't be like he is, and this thread wouldn't exist. But I'm open to hear other comments. I don't want to be actually "mean" to someone, as it's not in my nature.
Date: Tue Jan 29 07:33:28 2019
User: BuzzClik
Message:TN, I know that you're established something of a rapport with your critic, but you're playing fetch for a hypocrite. When I read, "Can't justify mean shit, period," my eyes rolled so hard I though I pulled a muscle. But, do what you must.
Date: Tue Jan 29 08:27:31 2019
User: outskirts
Message:So predictable. Provoke, get reaction. Finger point. It's a sick game. From someone who harasses other posters with multiple nicks so it looks like more than just the one, who incidentally can't see the evil in himself. Hard eye roll.
Date: Tue Jan 29 08:39:43 2019
User: outskirts
Message:"your critic" ... wrong. I'm your critic also.
Date: Tue Jan 29 09:36:30 2019
User: joeygray
Message:What treasure layeth beyond these gates, that requireth such defense as plain we see? I for one know not.
Date: Tue Jan 29 09:43:04 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:So, BuzzClik is really all those other people, right? It's not TN.
Date: Tue Jan 29 09:58:19 2019
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:But why did Denny start with level 5?
Why not level 1?
Date: Tue Jan 29 10:20:54 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:So that you could go to "Custom" and choose a Level 1 game. Then you could finally win one.
Oooh! Burn!
James
Date: Tue Jan 29 10:28:38 2019
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:But, because of the algorithm, aren't there hard games in level 1, too?
Following your logic, wouldn't there be levels easier than level 1, say level 0 or -1?
Date: Tue Jan 29 10:48:19 2019
User: joeygray
Message:Whose logic?
It's always been a backburner thought of mine to sit down and figure out what the difficulty algorithm is, exactly. But even without having done that, I would guess the algorithm itself could be extended to 0 or -1 and so forth. Question is, would the end results be 'easier' games or not. I mean, you know that using zip to bundle up files usually compresses them considerably. But using zip on a zip file doesn't, in fact it can make the result larger. Might be the same situation here.
Date: Tue Jan 29 11:12:08 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:They are all hard for those who only ask questions but have no answers.
Date: Tue Jan 29 11:22:20 2019
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning."
Albert Einstein
Date: Tue Jan 29 11:28:10 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:Ah! That explains the confusion. Albert often answered questions...that was actually one of his fortes. When he said "not to stop questioning" he didn't mean it literally in the sense that one has no time to work on answering.
Date: Tue Jan 29 11:33:05 2019
User: firenze
Message:A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?
Albert Einstein
Date: Tue Jan 29 13:09:57 2019
User: BuzzClik
Message:>>>jamesblackburn-lynch: "So, BuzzClik is really all those other people, right? It's not TN."
On this thread, it's been BuzzClik (not my real name) and just one other (should be obvious). A lot of people who post here use multiple names to reflect their mood or to make a point. Denny has an entire tribe of nicknames. (I use one of the "The_xxx" nicks, but have not done so on this thread.)
Just as a point of clarification, my "critic" has used somewhere around 20 different names on this board. It would be hilarious to find out that andaronjim and outskirts were the same person.
Date: Tue Jan 29 13:23:47 2019
User: The_Interpreter
Message:Then I am not you??!!
This is all very confusing.
Date: Tue Jan 29 13:24:51 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:That *WOULD* be hilarious. If by some miracle that turned out to be true, I would most certainly bow down to both in worship. But due to jim's "other board" (along with the accumulated evidence, and the fact that keeping all that straight would have by now sent someone to "the home") I think the chances of that are essentially about the same as the Raiders somehow winning Sunday's Super Bowl.
Date: Tue Jan 29 14:10:03 2019
User: outskirts
Message:Okay now that I've sufficiently stirred up the old men I will take my leave as this is no place for me.
Date: Tue Jan 29 14:14:30 2019
User: outskirts
Message:...and Buzzclik FilthyMcNasty LumberJack who is so obsessed with me, lied.
Date: Tue Jan 29 14:32:36 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:Okay, outskirts (who I know is also xeena) who is The_Inquisitor and The_Interpreter? Since TN and The_Interpreter posted within a minute of each other I'm guessing they are the same.
I don't get why this is such a secret.
And the only other nick of Denny I know is Mr. Fixit.
For the record, I am just me.
James
Date: Tue Jan 29 14:42:23 2019
User: outskirts
Message:They are firenze.
My nicks were never a secret, or were they ever used for evil.
Date: Tue Jan 29 14:44:14 2019
User: outskirts
Message:And I never used more than one at a time. I just changed nicks. Buzz implies more but there is no more.
Date: Tue Jan 29 16:39:45 2019
User: The_Interpreter
Message:Firenze is a good choice, but his Mother would be better.
Date: Tue Jan 29 17:03:38 2019
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:I don't know, Firenze seems questionable.
But, it might be helpful to know I have a pair of Mother's underwear.
Date: Wed Jan 30 09:18:03 2019
User: FilthyMcNasty
Message:Firenze is a nice young man, but his mom! I, too, have a pair of her panties. I was searching for them the other day only to realize I was wearing them.
Date: Wed Jan 30 09:26:40 2019
User: The_Revelator
Message:Amuse yourself with such debauchery, but at what cost? There came to me one of the seven Angels, which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, "Come: I will show thee the damnation of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters, with whom have committed fornication the kings of the earth, and the inhabitants of the earth are drunken with the wine of her fornication." Then the Angel said unto me, "Wherefore marvelest thou? I will show thee the mystery of that woman, and of that beast that beareth her, which hath seven heads and ten horns."
How fond are you of the suffocating smell of burning sulfur? Change your ways while you yet have time!
Date: Wed Jan 30 10:44:29 2019
User: The_Interpreter
Message:Really. He needs to keep it short and punchy. For instance:
“Everything at some point has been declared the root of all evil.”
― Criss Jami, Killosophy
Date: Wed Jan 30 11:44:31 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:This made me LOL:
Urban Dictionary: TLDR
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TLDR
Top definition. TLDR unknown ... The other definitions of tldr made me want to say tldr ... The average IQ of people typing TLDR in Internet forums is about 64.
Hey James, I guess that you are the person keeping it from being < 60!!
Date: Wed Jan 30 12:52:13 2019
User: joeygray
Message:Due to my large-ish compulsion to read things to the very end, I have never thought of typing trdl to anything. My usual, rather, is wichtilbb: wish I could have those irretrievably lost braincells back.
Date: Wed Jan 30 14:06:23 2019
User: FilthyMcNasty
Message:I was hoping to read more about Mother's true identity. The_Revelator certainly captured lifestyle. However, I never saw her riding a seven-headed, ten-horned unicorn.
Date: Tue Jul 25 14:35:04 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:Getting back on the initial poster's track here.............
What's with this game being climate 5???
Date: Tue Jul 25 18:28:12 2023
User: roo
Message:Seeing as a lot of level 5s 11x0s are unwinnable, what's your problem?
Date: Tue Jul 25 19:37:02 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:Just doing one of my periodic 'salutes' to andaronjim. 😁🤭🥳
(You may want to review the first page of this thread for context. 😉)
Date: Tue Jul 25 19:50:58 2023
User: BuzzClik
Message:Pass
Date: Tue Jul 25 21:07:34 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:No, I wouldn't think you'd need a refresher.
Date: Tue Aug 1 13:20:21 2023
User: smelly_cootiefied_fence_post
Message:I wanna know how many attempts it took somebody to wear this one down. And I'm no elo expert (duh), but 1906 seems awfully low for such a toughie. Something smells here..........
Date: Tue Aug 1 14:24:35 2023
User: ElGuapo
Message:The entire 7x3-5 game level seems to be underrated by a couple hundred points, but it didn't start that way. Look at the players who frequent the level and it's basically Uberman and a list of other players who Elo wasn't built for because they never lose.
Date: Tue Aug 1 14:44:27 2023
User: joeygray
Message:Nothing smells. Almost all of those plays were on the replay, and so didn't count.
Frequently I might play one on the replay in which the first play 'showed me the way' and I go ahead and win it on the second try. That's exactly why we don't count replays. But that 7x3 belongs in a different class of game, where maybe the 20th time or the 30th doesn't enlighten the player, and essentially each ought to count as an original try. Of course our scheme can't possibly distinguish between these two types of games.
Date: Tue Aug 1 14:53:57 2023
User: ix
Message:
Date: Tue Aug 1 14:55:11 2023
User: joeygray
Message:Of course if we COULD distinguish, that would be tantamount to knowing the 'actual difficulty of the game' before the ELO engine generates it. If we had that, the whole ELO exercise would be superfluous.
Let's say there are games which are plain impossible to win on the first try. If we let the engine run long enough, their ELO would eventually rise up to the impossible level. But yikes. Are there that many days left in the existence of the earth for that to happen?
Date: Tue Aug 1 23:13:11 2023
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Compare the following:
| |
|
| 7x1 | 7x2 | 7x3 | 7x4 | 7x5 | 7x6 | 7x7 | 7x8 | 7x9 |
| 5 | 2185 | 1962 | 1461 | 1367 | 1168 | 932 | 868 | 805 | 710 |
| 6 | 2284 | 2017 | 1713 | 1461 | 1235 | 1027 | 874 | 779 | 646 |
| 7 | 2305 | 2072 | 1880 | 1513 | 1302 | 1092 | 868 | 759 | 595 |
| 8 | 2350 | 2122 | 1979 | 1632 | 1388 | 1166 | 843 | 743 | 539 |
| 9 | 2421 | 2162 | 2055 | 1723 | 1448 | 1209 | 851 | 704 | 482 |
| 10 | 2467 | 2236 | 2117 | 1728 | 1482 | 1214 | 823 | 668 | 407 |
| 11 | 2503 | 2247 | 2168 | 1841 | 1576 | 1318 | 888 | 753 | 496 |
| 12 | 2522 | 2281 | 2141 | 1850 | 1634 | 1327 | 914 | 792 | 497 |
This is from Hop-style Elo ratings:
| 7x1. | 1898.915 | 2362.000 | 2390.000 | 2409.000 | 2473.000 | 2558.000 | 2634.000 | 2710.000 |
| 7x2. | 1739.010 | 2047.000 | 2197.000 | 2350.000 | 2410.998 | 2530.000 | 2556.000 | 2613.997 |
| 7x3. | 1601.926 | 1676.998 | 1707.007 | 1795.002 | 1844.002 | 1896.003 | 1962.009 | 2083.079 |
| 7x4. | 1337.726 | 1407.402 | 1478.244 | 1628.984 | 1679.987 | 1699.267 | 1750.002 | 1799.978 |
| 7x5. | 1148.984 | 1205.973 | 1289.963 | 1371.976 | 1445.971 | 1459.899 | 1586.948 | 1605.897 |
| 7x6. | 994.167 | 1028.967 | 1114.243 | 1202.232 | 1248.821 | 1269.052 | 1327.994 | 1335.240 |
| 7x7. | 867.996 | 873.995 | 916.996 | 941.995 | 949.996 | 822.993 | 853.000 | 914.000 |
| 7x8. | 623.001 | 633.000 | 643.000 | 653.000 | 663.000 | 672.993 | 905.000 | 941.000 |
| 7x9. | 362.000 | 372.000 | 382.000 | 392.000 | 402.000 | 411.983 | 496.000 | 497.000 |
Date: Wed Aug 2 02:51:43 2023
User: smelly_cootiefied_fence_post
Message:Basically, everything around me smells, joey. That one just seemed especially pungent.
I'm unclear about this statement: "Almost all of those plays were on the replay, and so didn't count."
I always thought that all attempts 'count' towards the plays of any particular game, unless maybe custom and tournaments; not sure about those. For example.................if I play a game that's 0/10, and play it 10 more times, losing all, isn't it going to show 0/20? I suspect you mean they don't 'count' against the player's record. I don't think you mean it this way, but one could interpret your statement as meaning that there could have been many, many more attempts at that game without success, that didn't "count". Could you clarify, please?
Relatedly..............it still strikes me as just a bit 'disconcerting' that there clearly are several/many players here who seem to be 'hunting' unwon games to knock off, just for the elo of it, instead of playing 'organically'. Nothing *really* wrong with it - other than, as TN has pointed out before, it 'robs' players who might encounter it in regular play of a nice first ascent. I guess it's akin to cherry-picking. But I know this is just a philosophical difference, so....... (A rafflesia arnoldii by any other name....................)
Date: Wed Aug 2 08:00:24 2023
User: joeygray
Message:I just meant, doesn’t count toward changing its or your elo. Replay after replay, both stay the same, meaning the game’s is essentially no different than it was when it was 0 of 1.
Date: Wed Aug 2 13:47:56 2023
User: smelly_cootiefied_fence_post
Message:So let me make sure I'm correctly getting what you're saying. A game that's 1/3, let's say, but then gets lost 100 times by a hard-headed contestant, to become 1/103, doesn't have its elo impacted - other than by the initial play (#4)? So.........if that same game had been instead played by 100 different contestant-losers, then each of those plays *would* impact elo? That seems reasonable, I guess. But then that means that for such a game as I encountered (1/59), there is no way, prima facie, to know whether or not that game was lost by 58 unique players, or 1 person 58 times? If I'm interpreting that correctly, then that could explain the elo only being 1906? "The system" knows, but the player could not??
Date: Wed Aug 2 15:45:12 2023
User: joeygray
Message:Yeah. And the system doesn't know, either. It was a flaw, unavoidable of course, in the assignments of elo to games at the start of this, that we didn't know what part of the starting stats of any game was due to 'original, genuine tries" and what part was tournaments, replays-with-a-strong idea-of-what-to-do, replays-not-played-very-seriously, original-tries-not-tried-very-hard-for-whatever-reason, etc, etc. So if the game in question had accumulated its 0 of 58 BEFORE elo, it would certainly have a higher rating now, even though it most likely would have accumulated its record in exactly the same way.
*editted*
Or maybe not. After all, it's only here in the post elo world that the system tells you (after your first try) "a solver solved this". Maybe the replayer would have given up a lot sooner without that.
Date: Thu Aug 3 02:58:58 2023
User: smelly_cootiefied_fence_post
Message:Gee.............and I thought I had this figured out back a ways. So I think I get all of your first paragraph. We don't know what the record was of that game at "the beginning", altho maybe ElGuapo or cellmate knows?? But anyway, I understand the "flaw".
But let me go back to my earlier query........... Let's say now, in the new world, there is a game that's 1/3. Then say, andaronjim (it *is* his thread, after all) bangs away at it unsuccessfully to make it 1/103 (and again asks "What does level 5 difficulty means?")
[sic]. So that's the same, elo-wise, as if he'd played it only once and moved on? Whereas if another 100 players played it (not in a tournament), it's elo *also* wouldn't change? That doesn't make sense - because isn't that how game elos change? I must still be missing your meaning - or I was totally wrong in how game elos change. Please clarify. Thanks.
Date: Thu Aug 3 07:56:21 2023
User: joeygray
Message:To sum up, the “elo system” assumes that every game which counts for streak is being played seriously, to the best of the player’s ability without aids, (in particular the aid that replaying grants, but of course Tony too) to win that play of the game. The original assignments of game elo reflected the assumption that existing game records were a “decent enough” approximation of that assumption. The ongoing adjustments to elo are applied based solely on games that count for streak, under the same assumption.
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