Subject: Big, big, BIG (science) news
Date: Thu Apr 11 11:44:43 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:Tony, you're acting like my assessment is some kind of personal attack; it most certainly is not. And surely you know that money spent on a project doesn't necessarily at all equate with importance. So, you would be correct that (my view is that) "expensive science is probably not the same as 'BIG' science". There *tends* to be a correlation there, but that's more often having to do with building the "tools" to do observations that are extremely difficult to otherwise get at. Such as CERN, for example. Or putting a man on the moon. But look at Watson & Crick - not some giant expense there. Or look at stuff by Newton, Faraday, and Salk, etc., etc. (And yes, I know the "different era" conflation factor involved there - just making the point.)
That said, IF this "picture" somehow leads to a better understanding of the horizon, and can somehow lead to a better understanding of gravity, or the tension between quantum mechanics and Einstein's general relativity theory (a delicious conundrum), or Hawking radiation (and thus whether or not black holes "die"), then I would have to change my mind. The science surrounding this stuff IS big news, but to me, this "picture" isn't.
While this may somewhat be just personal opinion, I'm trying to weigh things on the scale of long-term understanding of how the universe works. Let's look at the other extreme (or nearly(?) at the other extreme)....... We can see a "picture" of an atom these days - but what does that tell us about how an atom "works"? It tells us nearly beans about the forces involved, the motions, the quantum mechanics, the interactions with other atoms, etc. Can I make an analogy that a picture of George Washington standing on a boat crossing the Delaware (actually very doubtful historically) - even if it were a true, accurate representation - tells us essentially nothing about the man, the upcoming battle, the Revolutionary War, etc., etc. No, far from a perfect analogy; just pointing out that a 'snapshot' of (the shadow of) an object that makes it's name by what it does, not by what it appears to look like, seem somewhat unimportant, relatively(pun intended)-speaking.
And let me ask again..........what does this picture tell us that already-extant x-ray information doesn't?
Finally..........just because you didn't start this thread doesn't mean you shouldn't contribute. Your ideas are as welcome as mine or anyone else's. I think it's rather amazing that we can have such a debate on an internet message forum springing from a computer card game.
Date: Thu Apr 11 12:47:49 2019
User: ix
Message:>> And let me ask again..........what does this picture tell us that already-extant x-ray information doesn't?
its got nothing to do with how much information we already have. if someone described to you glacier national park in detail, wouldn't you still be excited to see pictures of it?
Date: Thu Apr 11 13:54:01 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:Not if I already had the x-ray images. Remember, this "picture" is a heavily-massaged conglomeration of images from all over the world. I mean, I see your point - that a picture is worth a thousand words, so to speak - but just because human eyes can better/only assimilate electromagnetic radiation in the tiny range known as visible light, doesn't mean we should limit ourselves in that way. Software can easily tweak x-ray imagery into visible imagery. To wit................... (see link).........
"However, the colors of the bright ring in the image aren't the actual hues of the gas; rather, they represent a color map chosen by EHT researchers to depict the brightness of the emissions, Fox explained."
And from a separate article on space.com:
"Scientists have long had networks of multiple telescopes act like single large telescopes, a technique known as very long baseline interferometry. However, a key challenge with devising the EHT was operating with the relatively high-frequency radio waves needed to image these black holes."
So, see, this picture is really radio waves doctored to fit into the visible spectrum - analogous to x-rays already having been done in that manner.
[To those unfamiliar with these kinds of observations, higher-frequency emissions are studied because they have higher energies, and thus can break out of a black hole's gravity field near the event horizon much easier than can visible, UV, or IR light, for example. That's why we have radio telescopes, etc. The spectrum of visible light is only a *tiny* fraction of the radiation being emanated from all glowing bodies.]
Link: That black hole pic isn't "true" color
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:24:07 2019
User: ix
Message:i see your point, but remember most of us are nearly as scientifically knowledgeable as you are. we relate way more to a purdy picture.
Date: Thu Apr 11 15:24:39 2019
User: ix
Message:aren't, obviously
Date: Thu Apr 11 16:09:04 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:But don't you think it's a good thing to boost scientific literacy? I guess that's what I'm trying to do. What percentage of folks on earth who've seen that "picture" know it's not an 'actual' pic? I'd venture less than 20%, and maybe less than 10%. The more folks in general understand science, the better able they are to vote "correctly" (or at the very least, knowledgeably), and allocate dollars where they can influence the future in a positive way. At least that's what I, and most scientists, see to be part of our task.
Also, if one was *really* interested in this sort of thing, one would know that Einstein's predictions foresaw it almost exactly as it turned out. Check out this article and images from just this past October (see link). While those are projected to be what the black hole at the center of our galaxy (Sagittarius A*) would look like, notice how incredibly similar they are to what the EHT team came up with. (Go about 1/3 of the way down that page.) (Sagittarius A* was the original target of the EHT, but they realized fairly soon that that imaging was more difficult than that of M87, which they eventually settled on.) More important than that image was the fact that apparently (YET AGAIN) general relativity has been confirmed in yet another way.
[Sidelight: The amount of data generated by the disparate telescopes used for this project was so huge that it had to be transported via airplanes. Even hi-speed, hi-capacity internet couldn't handle it.]
[Sidelight (editorial): Einstein was one smaaaaart dude.]
Link: https://www.universetoday.com/140268/heres-what-the-first-images-from-the-event-horizon-might-look-like/
Date: Thu Apr 11 17:07:36 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:Back to the Luzon discovery....................I guess I don't need to go on and on about that - unless others here want to as well. But let me try and contextualize things concerning ancient paleoarcheology with a chart I found. Hopefully it'll be self-evident, but if not, say so....
You all may remember the h. naledi 'species' from that great "Nova" show a year or two ago - from that hard-to-slither-into cave in South Africa. And this chart leaves out (or doesn't illuminate, I guess) the recent discoveries in Morocco, that show that h. sapiens was apparently much more widespread (and earlier) in the distant past than just areas around the Rift Valley. Etc., etc. But it gives a decent overview of where these various "branches" fit (or don't) together. And just last(?) week a new Denisovan skull fragment was unearthed in China, which, not surprisingly, brings more questions than answers, as per usual. And we now know that there were at least(?) 3 *separate* Denisovan lines.
This image is from 2017, tho, so is not totally up-to-date. The Luzon discovery would 'fit' somewhere around h. floresiensis, but we don't have enough info to determine the relationships to all the Asian branches and sub-branches. New data surely to come out of SE Asia in the near future will be interesting, to say the least. Not to mention, China, which will likely ultimately be a gold mine of such finds.
Link: taxonomy (as we know it for now) of ancient hominids
Date: Thu Apr 11 23:06:52 2019
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:I did not find the picture of the black hole very interesting. In fact I view it as a dud. It looks like every projection of what a black hole would look like that has ever been published - just not as clear. And piecing together images from multiple telescopes has also been done before. The only thing interesting is that this is the first time it has been done on this scale. Still there is nothing in the pictures that would lend a hint as to whether black holes destroy information or not. Advancement along those lines would be big, big science news. I’d have been more intrigued by zooming in on some nearby exoplanet.
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:28:28 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:I almost went into that question of retention of information, but decided that was a quantum too far. The theoretical constructs necessary to grasp those answers are quite formidable. On the other hand.........is it possible we'll finally know what happened to all those missing single socks?
Date: Fri Apr 12 00:58:57 2019
User: ix
Message:i surmise that our missing socks are being transferred via black holes, thus transferring information in the form of socks, to exoplanets, whose inhabitants have three feet. the welcome appearance of socks in their dryers is as baffling to them as the disappearance of socks is to us. in a joking way they refer to them as quantum socks.
Date: Fri Apr 12 08:46:22 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:is,
Can you explain The_Interpreter’s reference to you earlier in this thread? I should probably just ignore them but I wonder if it was funny.
James
Date: Fri Apr 12 09:00:18 2019
User: BuzzClik
Message:The protocol on this message board is to either ignore or chastise The_Interpreter when he/she asks as question rather than offer an interpretation, and the same goes for the The_Inquisitor when he/she does NOT ask a question.
"Big, big, BIG (science) news for 1000, Alex."
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:10:03 2019
User: ix
Message:james, just go up about 8 posts from that one
Date: Fri Apr 12 10:51:25 2019
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:"Why is everybody always picking on me?"
Date: Fri Apr 12 11:13:01 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:I suspect Buzz is referring to me about the chastisement. "It is believed" that on this site there are generalists, and there are specialists. Some people play only 8x4, or concentrate on 7x3 or 10x6. Others dibble and dabble in a wide variety of variants, and joey's contests help promulgate that. So......when a poster adopts a moniker of "The_Inquisitor", "The_Revelator", "The_Interpreter", "firenzes_mother", "FilthyMcNasty", etc., "it is said" that they must be a specialist. Many others are generalists - too many to mention. A very few can walk both sides of the aisle, such as "CubicSprock" (specialty: winning; generalist (in): winning everything). And yes, there are a few who defy categorization, such as "bullsgits". But point being........it's only natural to think that "The_Revelator" would be doin' some revelatin', etc. So maybe my past chastisement has been slightly too harsh. Or maybe not. "It is believed" that if there was a burning question to be asked, that "The_Inquisitor" would be the one to ask it, not "The_Interpreter". Otherwise us dear readers would be confused.
And yes, james, it was funny. Maybe not riotously, but humorous rather than snarky. At least that's *my* interpretation.
Date: Fri Apr 19 08:45:19 2019
User: BuzzClik
Message:Well, you got your money's worth. Thank link is properly priced at 2c. ;)
Date: Thu May 23 02:22:10 2019
User: ix
Message:from the third paragraph
>> The potential uses for this are as vast as they are exciting: electrical wires without diminishing >> currents, extremely fast supercomputers and efficient magnetic levitation trains.
my background is mechanical engineering and i've always thought of current and voltage like the flow rate and pressure in a pipe. the voltage might go down just as the pressure but the current would be the same. how does current get lost in a wire? fields or something?
Date: Thu May 23 03:28:01 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:Your drawing a parallel between current/voltage and fluid pressure is pretty close, and you really didn't need me to tell you that, I don't think. But I'm not sure we understand how electrons interact, and it's 'sorta' assumed/thought that the analogy breaks down when one thinks of laminar flow in a pipe (vs. electrons and electron-like phenomena). But that's all very mysterious, and frankly, is somewhat unknown territory. Read paragraphs 4 and 5 in this link, and you'll get at least an inkling of the stuff being studied. "Charge density waves" and the weird symmetry effects *may* be at least parts of the explanation, but it almost certainly involves quantum effects at some point (my opinion). Also note that the article is over 4 years old.
Hint: Throw out your old concepts of "current" in superconductors. As you know, normally "current" involves resistance, which leads to heat, yada, yada, yada. When power is generated at a dam, or nuclear facility, or however, do those electrons actually travel themselves hundreds of miles? (See next post.)
[Disclaimer: altho I know something about this stuff, I haven't kept up with it in the last 3-5 years, and am in no way an expert.]
Worthwhile post, Klepp.
Link: How do electrons "behave" in superconductors
Date: Thu May 23 08:18:30 2019
User: free@last
Message:ix, current is lost through the insulator to ground
Date: Fri May 24 20:48:09 2019
User: ix
Message:of course! i wonder if this implies you could grab a bare superconducting wire without getting shocked?
Date: Sat May 25 09:04:01 2019
User: free@last
Message:I think the answer is no and I also think the assertion that a superconductor would not lose current is wrong.
My reasoning is that the conductor is used to transfer power to the load. But anything at any point that does not have infinite resistance is part of the load.
Date: Sat May 25 09:57:03 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:free,... I don't think you meant "infinite", I think you meant "zero resistance".
Date: Sat May 25 10:24:10 2019
User: ix
Message:i assumed he's talking about the conductor's insulation
Date: Sat May 25 11:38:27 2019
User: free@last
Message:yes, thank you, ix for clarifying.
Date: Mon Aug 5 11:19:56 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:Ok.............back to the beginning of this thread...........
This is something I wouldn't have been cognizant about. Nor, apparently, were (some, but not all) other scientists:
"That gravitational waves can leave permanent changes to a detector after the gravitational waves have passed is one of the rather unusual predictions of general relativity...."
"We didn't anticipate the richness and diversity of what could be observed...."
I'm not saying that this development *itself* is "Big, big, BIG (science) news", but since it relates to the initiation of this thread, I thought it quite worthwhile. Unless there indeed are astrophysicists residing here amongst us (and who knows?), this is more a very interesting side item, with a twist (pun intended). I don't expect most here to follow this, but just knowing that gravity waves can leave behind permanent changes actually *could* eventually be "Big, big, BIG (science) news". The implications are hard to fathom, as it *could* open up a way to study cosmological history.
[I can't believe it's been over 5 years since I started this thread; but it's nice to know I certainly didn't overstate the case back then.]
Link: a new 'twist' to gravity waves
Date: Mon Aug 5 14:28:56 2019
User: ejchap
Message:Unless there indeed are astrophysicists residing here amongst us (and who knows?),
Doc in Back To The Future
keeps referring to astrophysicsts
ejchap
Date: Wed Aug 7 12:35:36 2019
User: joeygray
Message:I am not an astrophysicist myself, I'm just a software guy, but I knew a number of them when I worked at the STScI. Barry Lasker, Jane Russell, Helmut Jenkner were folks I worked with on the Guide Star Catalog.
Probably the most famous guy I knew from those times was Dr. Cliff Stoll. I still have a T-shirt designed and printed by him, which I treasure as much as maybe a Farrah Fawcett t-shirt if I had one of those. It's too small for me. I'd post a picture of it if I knew where it was at this moment.
Date: Wed Aug 7 17:33:44 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:That's pretty cool. Stoll looks A LOT like a dermatologist friend of mine. (And thus quite distinct from Farrah.) Don't know him, but have (obliquely) followed bits and pieces of his diverse career. Post a pic of said shirt if it ever comes around.
Date: Wed Aug 7 21:45:31 2019
User: joeygray
Message:Ok TN, I found the shirt. I’ve had it in a cedar chest for the last oh, 30 years. There’s a link to the detail of the shirt below, I posted two shots to the pic page. In the detail, the guy second from the right is Dr. Barry Lasker, the head of the Guide Star Catalog project I worked on; I’m pretty sure the one in the center is supposed to be Cliff himself, and I’m pretty sure but not positive about some of the others. Only bigwigs are caricatured, not me, I was small fry. Cliff wasn’t famous yet, at this time. But he was and is a true Renaissance man.
Link: Detail of the STScI staff cartoon
Date: Thu Aug 8 05:36:06 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:Cool. Thanks.
Date: Fri Aug 9 13:46:41 2019
User: Kaos
Message:Two graduate students in Mexico have solved a 2000 year old issue with optical lenses being a bit out of focus at the edges.
Link: Camera Lens solution
Date: Fri Aug 9 18:18:49 2019
User: ejchap
Message:This is my son: Eric Chapdelaine
Company is Establishing Growth, Solidifying Manufacturing and Supply Chain and Focusing on Strategic Communications in New Year
Genprex, Inc. (NASDAQ: GNPX) a clinical-stage gene therapy company developing a new approach to treating cancer based upon a novel proprietary technology platform announced that it is continuing to grow its senior team with the hiring of Eric Chapdelaine, Senior Director of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Manufacturing, and Kalyn Dabbs, Senior Manager of Communications and Marketing, effective immediately. These hirings reflect the company’s latest steps in preparing to grow its operations and place an increased emphasis on corporate communications in 2019.
As the Senior Director of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Manufacturing, Eric Chapdelaine will oversee the company’s analytical development, chemistry, manufacturing and controls, technical operations and supply chain management for Genprex. He brings with him 14 years of experience in the pharmaceutical and biotech industries with a proven track record of driving growth. In his most recent role as the Director of Quality Control and Analytical Development at Cognate BioServices, he oversaw a staff of more than 40 employees in multiple laboratories working on cell and gene therapy. As the Senior Manager of Communications and Marketing, Kalyn Dabbs will be responsible for developing and implementing internal and external communication and marketing plans and managing the company’s digital strategy, an initiative the company has previously indicated will be a corporate focus in 2019. Prior to joining Genprex, Dabbs spent the past six years working in various communications and marketing roles in the healthcare and wellness industries.
“Having Eric and Kalyn join the Genprex team will bring value to the company and enhance our growth and communication efforts,” said Rodney Varner, Genprex’s Chief Executive Officer and Chairman. “Eric’s experience at both biotech companies and contract development and manufacturing organizations will be invaluable in managing and coordinating manufacturing partners and scale-up activities as we expand our research and development efforts and clinical trials of our lead product candidate, Oncoprex™, at the University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center and potentially other clinical sites.”
Date: Mon Sep 9 13:58:37 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:This likely isn't "BIG" science new, but since we discussed superconductivity above, this (hyperlink) is kinda interesting, if too early to know what it will lead to.
I think the topological manifestation of superconductivity has been kinda known, what with these amazing 1-atom-thickness (and 1-molecule-thickness) materials out there already. But calling it a "new state of matter" seems quite esoteric to me. But apparently it's a real designation.
For those confused, or not being able to keep up with all these newly-discovered states of matter, I refer you to this:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-eight-states-of-matter
And this:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-26-states-of-matter
Or best of all:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-states-of-matter-are-there
....IF, that is, anyone wants to "worry their pretty little heads" about such things. And then you can go on from their at your own pace. What a Pandora's box quantum mechanics is!
Link: new state of matter could possibly enhance superconductivity?
Date: Mon Sep 9 16:22:42 2019
User: The_Interpreter
Message:Dogbert (gazing at night sky): No matter how bad the day is, the stars are always there.
Dilbert: Actually, many of them burned out years ago, but their light is just now reaching earth.
Dogbert: Thank you for shattering my comfortable misconception.
Dilbert: It's the miracle of science.
Date: Wed Nov 27 11:43:23 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:In the other major science thread on this site, entitled "More, different BIG science news", Klepp has posted about the recent press concerning the possibility of a 5th basic force of nature - which would indeed be GIGANTIC news if true. Still quite a bit of skepticism - which is the way science is *supposed* to work, of course.
Dear readers can go to that thread (and I strongly encourage such), but I'm posting an earlier, somewhat more in-depth article from 2016 when this first was reported. See link below.
Here is the link to the other thread and Klepp's posts:
https://www.freecell.net/f/c/disctopic.html?code=12065&replies=51&start=0
See Klepp's very last post on that first page, and his follow-up very first post on page 2. Fascinating stuff, to say the least.
And again, I'm only posting these things here because (imo) they fit more with the original and continuing theme of this thread. Would be GREAT if somehow Snowguy (are you still with us?) or Denny could somehow move those two posts to this thread.
Link: "nature" article theorizing a 5th force of nature
Date: Mon Feb 17 03:06:18 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:It's been a few months since any significant archaeo-anthropology news has come out - 'til a few days ago. I'm gonna post 3 stories, but hyperlink perhaps the most readable yet essentially complete one. This stuff just continues to be fascinating as more levels of complexity keep appearing (not surprisingly). I really had wondered how they had (supposedly) ascertained that there was NO Neanderthal DNA in modern Africans, and now we know - they were just assuming there wasn't any - or not enough to consider of note. Applying more powerful statistical tools shows a further-back-in-time linkage.
Here's the original news story about the article in the Jan. 30 edition of "Cell":
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/africans-have-more-neanderthal-dna-than-previously-thought-67033
And relatedly, about the "ghost species":
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/remnants-of-extinct-hominin-species-found-in-west-african-genomes-67101
Link: ancient Neanderthal DNA in sub-Saharan Africans
Date: Mon Jun 15 03:06:13 2020
User: ix
Message:if a black hole was in our vicinity, close enough to observe but distant enough to not doom us, and a star was heading straight towards it, would we observe the star's approach slowing as it got close, because of time dilation? would the star's luminosity, being a measure of energy per time, decrease by wavelength shift? i have a hard time with relativity.
Date: Mon Jun 15 05:16:32 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:Hmmm........ Imagine that, as it approaches, it's coming in from "the left", let's say. I.e., it's equidistant to us as the black hole. Light coming from the star would of course be bent by the gravity of the hole, but since it it's not in a direct line, would that make a difference? Just off the top of my head, in that case I'd guess we would not see the approach slowing down. An observer on either of those bodies would, I think, perceive time dilation. But the way you've worded your question, I think you're thinking of a star approaching the black hole in line with us also? The luminosity question has me head-scratching for the moment. But again, I think it would depend on the angle of approach.
All that is kinda extemporaneous thinking at 5 AM, so............
Date: Mon Jun 15 08:04:59 2020
User: ix
Message:i hadn't seen that, it's something i've been wondering a while and was actually leading up to more questions about the detection of gravitational waves. i've seen articles about how the waves that have been detected were caused by the collision of black holes of differing mass, how do they know that and also, if there is time dilation involved why are gravitational waves received as a blip and not spread out over time, and do the waves have frequency and is that frequency shifted. i've always been confused by relativity. how can we see their clock running slowly while they see our clock running slowly, stuff like that. i was thinking of a black hole on the left with the star approaching from the right along a line perpendicular to our line of sight, and thinking about whether it would be a different situation if the star and black hole were both along our line of sight, with the star approaching the black hole from the near or far side, or if it was circling into the black hole, has only confused me further. i tried considering the luminosity thing by comparing it to filming a light source and then watching the film in slow motion (still as bright), but decided that a higher film rate would involve faster shutter time being compensated by larger aperture. i'm real confused.
Date: Mon Jun 15 11:03:12 2020
User: hotnurse
Message:A similar scenario has me scratching my head. We recently had an asteroid pass close to the earth but not too close to have an effect. What if another asteroid would pass much closer? Would it effect or possibly bend our perception of time?
Date: Mon Jun 15 11:19:49 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:@hotnurse - No; those asteroids, altho moving faster than jimmyp on an 8x3, still are nowhere remotely close to the speed of light, and that is necessary to be able to see (measure) those relativity effects (to any degree). VERY technically, tho, yes. It's just that the perception is infinitesimally small. Kinda like time passing more slowly where our head is vs. where are feet are. (Yes, true.) The effects of time dilation are not anywhere close to linear as speed increases. One has to get up there generally close to light speed to be able to see large perturbations. I'll leave the math out of this response, but can try and make it (moderately?) accessible if you wish.
Date: Mon Jun 15 12:13:28 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:ix..............I can't believe it's been over 6 years now since I started this thread with the 'discovery'/proof of gravity waves. You may want to go back and read the first article I posted beginning this thread.
"Researchers were looking for a specific type of polarization called "B-modes," which signify a curling pattern in the polarized orientations of light from the ancient universe, said Jamie Bock, co-leader of the BICEP2 collaboration and professor of physics at California Institute of Technology.
In theory, this swirling polarization pattern could only be created from gravitational waves. And that is what BICEP2 found.
"It's a very clean signature of those gravity waves," Irwin said."
I think that particular concept 'explains' why (the original detection) was a blip instead of being spread out over time. But your question does highlight the concept of how they're detected. And note that that initial news splash was with the BICEP2 team - not from the LIGO method - which came later and was even stronger 'proof'. There's plenty of info out there about how LIGO works. And now with Virgo, in Italy, coming online, the confirmatory signals are pretty well "proven".
As a head start, you might want to read the "Operation" part of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO
Date: Mon Jun 15 21:53:54 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:Been thinking about this a bit more today, ix, and came across this totally by accident (see link). I know your example was just a thought experiment, but the scenario you were constructing would likely be an *extremely* rare event - if it would ever happen at all. I'm sure it **could** happen, but we always hear about rotation (vs. collision pathways) in these situations, and I think there are very good reasons for that, if we think about it. I won't belabor those here, unless someone specifically wants that.
Which doesn't (re)solve your thought experiment, but (to me, at least) makes it somewhat less intriguing. I don't know if this article informs towards your question at all, but it may possibly shape your thinking about it.
Link: a star and a black hole meet in a parsec......
Post follow-up