Subject: Never won winnables!
Date: Thu Jan 21 06:33:20 2016
User: TitanicTony
Message:I had 2 yesterday:
W6x5, 27342-5 is currently 0/15.
W6x5, 15216-5 is currently 0/7.
Anyone like a challenge?
I would like to start a campagne that all winnable games should be won at least once, so that those playing the regular variants will know that it was winnable.
Date: Thu Jan 21 11:12:26 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:Will there be champagne after the campagne?
(Mastermind knocked one off last night that had previously been 0/45 --> 0/51). See his report at the end of the "WWC reminders -- Play WEDNESDAYS" thread.)
That said, evidence is pretty darn strong that free@last's work was without error. No, it cannot be mathematically proved until all he says are winnable have been actually 'won', but the evidence to date is so strong that I think we can trust his results.
Date: Thu Jan 21 11:22:41 2016
User: my580thnick
Message:How do you suggest we access the unwinnable winnables?
Date: Thu Jan 21 11:43:49 2016
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:my580thnick,
In the box to the far left, rather than Standard choose Custom. Then choose 6 columns, 5 freecells, level 5 and then type in the game number. I don't know if winnables just have different numbers, but it chose the winnable one for me.
James
Date: Thu Jan 21 12:35:04 2016
User: my580thnick
Message:How do I find the game number of the unwon winnables?
Date: Thu Jan 21 13:09:41 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:I don't think there is any way to do that, short of Denny or free@last revealing them, as there is not a separate database for winnables (on the site) - at least not that I've ever seen.
Date: Thu Jan 21 13:27:39 2016
User: free@last
Message:All the "winnables" have been won...just not on this site. :)
Date: Thu Jan 21 13:46:08 2016
User: my581stnick
Message: Then we shouldn't need the campagne.
Date: Thu Jan 21 17:03:05 2016
User: CubicSprock
Message:and not by a human :-P
Date: Fri Jan 22 04:01:30 2016
User: TitanicTony
Message:We find the game numbers of the unwon winnables by reporting them here, whenever they occur!
Date: Thu Mar 3 16:11:18 2016
User: TitanicTony
Message:We have this thread for reporting all un-won winnable games!
For the SSC last Saturday, 27 Feb 2016, stinky_cootified_peach_tree reported the following 2 games:
23230/5 was 0/39, and 31634/5 was 0/42 (and is now 0/48)!
Does anyone want the challenge?
Date: Thu Mar 3 18:14:03 2016
User: TitanicTony
Message:Oh dear, I must really be getting old!!!
What stinky_cootified_peach_tree reported was for the WWC, yesterday, 2 March 2016 (NOT the previous SSC, which would make no sense, as there are a lot of never won games in the SSC), and it would have helped to mention the variant, which was W (winnable) 10x1!
Date: Wed Mar 9 18:28:18 2016
User: rws33315
Message:Game #: 27683
Game stats: 8/0/0.00%
Difficulty: 6
Elapsed: 4:30
Streak was: 16
winnable 9x2
Date: Fri Mar 11 03:24:33 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:That is one bad hombre.
Date: Sat Mar 12 14:47:34 2016
User: WRAC
Message:I'm not saying this game isn't winnable (yet), but I'm beginning to have my doubts.
Currently 0 for 104. Good luck to anyone who wants to try it!
Link: 9x2 27683-6 Stats
Date: Sat Mar 12 15:05:23 2016
User: rws33315
Message:3/9 6:25 pm 9x2 27683-6 Winnable 4:30 Lost
I copied and pasted this from my "recent history
of play" page to show the game as part of the
winnable database.
Date: Sat Mar 12 15:14:50 2016
User: WRAC
Message:Yes, but others have had issues thinking they were playing winnables when the system had switched them over. I thought this might be a similar bug. Sorry if you thought I was implying you were mistaken!
Date: Sat Mar 12 15:27:26 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:At first I thought that was a possibility, too (since I seem to be the one it's happened to most), but went back and checked his play history that day, in the WWC, and it showed his *second* play as "streak*, but the first one was listed as "winnable" - as his posting above states.
I gave it maybe 15-20 plays, and think it's somehow winnable, but just can't quite get there. Lots and lots of paths. So far, free@last's work has been shown to be faultless, so I'm betting it is in this case, too. When I last tried it, it was something like 0-for 35(ish), so it's standing up to lots of attempts. I'm saying, when it does fall, we need andaronjim to lobby to move it up to climate 7 or 8. lol.
Date: Sat Mar 12 16:22:16 2016
User: rws33315
Message:No problem WRAC. I just wanted to preserve the "evidence" before it was erased!
Date: Sun Mar 13 14:44:55 2016
User: free@last
Message:I tried it a bunch of times and couldn't get anywhere. Ran it through the solver just to make sure and it solves and it does. It is not an easy game but, having seen the solution, I will not attempt the game again (nor offer hints!) so as not to sully the site stats. :)
Date: Sun Mar 13 14:52:19 2016
User: ix
Message:thanks for checking it, free@last, i've played it 17 times and gotten NOWHERE. now 0/137, thanks for posting it rws, even though i'm pretty sure i'm not going to be the one to crack it.
Date: Sun Mar 13 15:57:11 2016
User: ix
Message:yay! i got it! now 1/169
Date: Sun Mar 13 16:06:28 2016
User: ix
Message:19th try
Date: Sun Mar 13 16:23:33 2016
User: rws33315
Message:Congrats ix!
Date: Sun Mar 13 16:51:33 2016
User: WRAC
Message:That's awesome, ix!
I'm still baffled. I think I need to walk away for a few days and then look at it fresh.
Date: Sun Mar 13 17:04:16 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:Congrats, ix!!
I've been going with what WRAC said - let it rest a while.
Date: Mon Mar 14 10:11:36 2016
User: TitanicTony
Message:10x0 28105/5 was 0/13, and is now 1/14!
Date: Wed Mar 16 01:49:15 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:W6x5:
26836-6 Now 0/24.
Date: Wed Mar 16 02:27:12 2016
User: Mastermind
Message:Did you mean some other, possibly W8x3,variant? 6x5 26836 6, after my win shows 1/1 100%.
Date: Wed Mar 16 02:52:50 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:Why yes, I did. Pardon me. It's climate 5. Obviously, if you won it in climate 6, there is no point in you bothering with it in climate 5, as it will be trivial.....
Link: 26836-5 (W6x5)
Date: Wed Mar 16 04:01:11 2016
User: TNmountainman
Message:And maybe this one will be trivial, too:
5511-5 (W6x5) Now 0/29.
[Update before posting: on a whim, I gave it a second shot, just trying a wild gambit, and almost pulled it off. I think it will end up being not terribly difficult - just requiring an unorthodox opening - but too fatigued to really try. Now 0/30.]
Date: Wed Mar 16 10:24:04 2016
User: free@last
Message:I got 26836-5. Knowing it was tough I took my time.
Game #: 6x5 26836
Game stats: 25/1/4.00%
Difficulty: 5
Elapsed: 8:18
Date: Wed Mar 16 14:48:28 2016
User: rws33315
Message:Is the game "easier" knowing it's winnable?
Date: Wed Mar 16 15:49:31 2016
User: ix
Message:is a game that can't be won harder?
Date: Wed Mar 16 15:57:08 2016
User: ix
Message:its an abstract question rws, and kind of a "unstoppable hits immovable" concept for me, but if i had to tick a yes or no box, i'd have to go with yes
Date: Wed Mar 16 15:57:25 2016
User: hotnurse
Message:Two good points to ponder. For me, yes to the making it "easier" knowing that it can be won. A fair example of that is when I draft in a tournament.
For those games that "can't be won"...that is only true until someone wins it.
Just curious; what is the *most* tries at a given game that was finally won? Or for the stat geeks...what is the teensiest % of a game that has been won?
Date: Wed Mar 16 16:48:44 2016
User: free@last
Message:I wouldn't say it is easier knowing it is winnable. I would say that I am more determined to solve a winnable than a "normal" game. Maybe it's the engineering background but I don't like to spend my time on unsolvable problems. (Except politics and Maria. How do you solve a problem like that?)
Date: Wed Mar 16 17:01:17 2016
User: rws33315
Message:All great answers. Thanks!
Date: Wed Mar 16 18:00:50 2016
User: hotnurse
Message:ix, the game you sited is a great example, too, of how hard some 12 sums can be...especially, for me at least, with the 6x6. Those get me many times in a deadly tournament!
Date: Wed Mar 16 18:17:10 2016
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:My master knows it's easier if he knows a game can be won. I get a LOT of use on days like today.
Date: Sat Mar 26 09:20:46 2016
User: TitanicTony
Message:I had this game in the SSC today:
Game #: 9x1 11100
Game stats: 18/1/5.56%
Difficulty: 5
Elapsed: 5:17
Date: Thu Mar 31 05:06:07 2016
User: TitanicTony
Message:Yesterday, in the WWC, rufus_r had this as his very first game:
W6x5, 28133/5, is currently 0/12!
Date: Thu Mar 31 19:34:03 2016
User: dcn21
Message:I solved all the hands in this thread. Only the 10x1 31634-5 and the 4x10 19199-5 hadn't already been won.
Date: Thu Mar 31 20:29:18 2016
User: ix
Message:i see that 9x2 27683 took you all of five tries to win with a time of 4:10, which you apparently thought was too long so you replayed it and won in 2:21. it is now 3/248. were you dropped on your head at any point in your life? like from an airplane?
Link: http://freecell.net/f/c/view_one_game.html?;27683,6,9x2
Date: Thu Mar 31 20:34:17 2016
User: ix
Message:on a serious note, do you mind telling me a little about yourself? you are a fascinating critter.
Date: Fri Apr 1 00:24:49 2016
User: dcn21
Message:Thanks, I think. I've never been called a fascinating critter before. I'm from Montreal, I play drums and percussion, not professionally, but that's ok. I started playing freecell about 12 years ago (seems like 3 years). I play mostly 10x1 nowadays because it's not so mindboggling as the narrows but you can still do some serious damage in a short time. I probably shouldn't mention this but what I normally do with very difficult hands is win them twice just to understand better why and how they are won. I feel this strategy has improved my game considerably over the years.
Date: Fri Apr 1 08:37:22 2016
User: ix
Message:i was wondering if you were in math, science or engineering. you're insanely good.
Date: Fri Apr 1 12:22:31 2016
User: free@last
Message:This is what it takes for me to get a streak of 2 lately.
Game #: 6x5 13282
Game stats: 28/1/3.57%
Difficulty: 5
Elapsed: 16:15
Streak: 2
Today: 2
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