Subject: Never won winnables!
Date: Fri May 14 15:07:48 2021
User: ix
Message:if you're going to lose a streak to this one, best case is a streak of zero, and to not spend a bunch of time on it
Game #: 29854
Game stats: 111/0/0.00%
Difficulty: 5
Elapsed: 2:22
Streak was: n/a
Link: https://www.freecell.net/f/c/view_one_game.html?;29854,5,6x5
Date: Fri May 14 16:36:35 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:Thanks, ix, that was fun! ..... You Win.
Game #: 6x5 29854-5; ..... Game stats: 113/1/0.88%.
Date: Sat May 15 02:15:17 2021
User: ix
Message:excellent solve tony, thanks for playing it.
Date: Sat May 15 03:23:53 2021
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:ix, don't you think that his 'victory' both:
a) ruins the 'real' stats for that game - as well as for the variant, even if that is just a tiny, tiny amount; and
b) robs someone else of the thrill of a truly difficult first ascent?
Those are my opinions, but I'd like to hear yours.
Date: Sat May 15 04:10:26 2021
User: ix
Message:the only thrill of first ascent would be to someone who hit it in streak play and won it, not likely in our life time
it probably would have taken a top player multiple tries, maybe many, so it amounts to a few less counted tries, but after so many, who cares? i doubt he put in a dozens, it shows he really is a top notch player, after all, he got the bugger. i was just happy that he was interested enough to tackle it, enthusiasm gets the girls.
Date: Sat May 15 04:36:11 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:Maybe I'm confused. For any player first playing that game, and losing, that would count as an attempt, obviously. But then if the same player kept attempting it, those attempts are "on the record", are they not, and the stats would so reflect those attempts? We've had literally countless examples of that on this board over the years. I call it winning by "brute force" - but the community has always accepted that as a legitimate win. It would qualify as a first ascent, I think, by most here even if the victory was 'tainted' by dozens of tries. Not an elegant first ascent, but it counts. But that's just semantics, really, either way on the "first ascent" concept.
It sounds like you're saying that if he uses his cards, that's not any worse than someone banging away at it over and over. Don't want to be putting words on your keyboard; just saying that's what it sounds like. As we all know, his 1 or 2 *recorded* attempts could be anywhere from 1-2 to a hundred or more. Instead of being 1/113, it should perhaps be 1/157 or something - and thus would an even more legendary win for somebody playing it 'fairly'.
Date: Sat May 15 05:03:20 2021
User: ix
Message:if it's just about the count, then yeah, i agree, why not just use replay, but he did solve a bitch of a game, and i congratulate him on that. and getting vaccinated.
Date: Sat May 15 05:25:06 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:Doesn't really count as a win in my book, but there's no way to separate those out, so for history's sake, he apparently gets away with it - which is sad. To me, its just using a non-digitaI solver. I guess we'll just have to gentlemanly disagree on this.
Date: Sat May 15 05:26:50 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:THANKS, ix, 🙂!
TN, OBVIOUSLY, it could NOT be "a hundred or more"! My win was posted about 89 minutes after the post by ix!
I wonder if I have more "first wins" than anybody else?
I'm certainly not going to sift through 25 pages of this thread to try to find out!
The VAST majority of my "first wins" are on previously unplayed games, and are not reported here.
There are STILL, after more than 20 years, a lot of unplayed games on this site!
Date: Sat May 15 05:36:18 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:It could still hypothetically be over 100. Each time you move a card, then move it back a move, is another attempt. I would imagine one could easily rack up 20 moves in 10 minutes in such a manner. Etc. But it may have been far less than that. But the principle is the same. Doesn't matter if you only did it once. At that point, the game is lost, and you're on to a new attempt.
Date: Sat May 15 06:20:56 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:My, you are persistent! Why don't you just STFU!?
Date: Sat May 15 06:47:36 2021
User: Oded789
Message:Because you're a cheater, and none of your wins are for real.
And how classy of you of using the F word. Keep up the good work.
Date: Sat May 15 08:29:02 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:Your (and some others) definition, but deFinitely not mine!!
I will try...
Date: Sat May 15 09:20:56 2021
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:I agree with everyone but Tony here. First, I think this counts as a win. Cards or no cards, how many people would put the time and effort in to win a game that is obviously very hard? And therefore, how many would succeed?
This gets back to my earlier point to Tony that he is, in my mind, obviously a very good player. But he is indeed a cheater. And because of that, when he pulls out his cards he is delegitimizing the stats. He could instead, not cheat, and do what he does in his mind. I can see he frequently wins games without cards. He can plan and strategize in his head. Can he do it well enough to win this game on the first try? Probably not, but I bet he could in no more tries than someone like Kaos would. Or maybe not twice as many.
And we can see from this post he is getting angry and tired of this debate. Again...Tony, you don’t get much respect here because you don’t deserve it. Put away your cards. You will do better than you think (of course you don’t believe me...if you did, then you would think it) and, I also believe, better than TN thinks. You are a very good player who gets no respect. For a very good reason.
James
Date: Sat May 15 09:47:18 2021
User: Oded789
Message:I agree with JBL. I actually think Tony could do reasonably well in streak play playing by the rules.
He wouldn't have his fake #4 in the Elo rankings, but somewhere between #20-50. Which is quite good, and would be *for real*.
Date: Sat May 15 10:13:34 2021
User: cellmate
Message:
ah... to be gifted with eidetic memory
Date: Sat May 15 10:19:14 2021
User: The_Interpreter
Message:It is always in season for old men to learn.
Aeschylus
Date: Sat May 15 10:52:00 2021
User: byronsmoot
Message:No Country For Old Men
Coen Brothers
Date: Sat May 15 13:20:59 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:I think Tony is a smart fellow. How well he'd do without cards, tho, no one knows. I think he'd do pretty well. I think he'd not do well initially, just for the obvious reason. He'd have to re-train his mind to operate differently - and I think that might be a tall task. Or maybe not. But he's clearly intelligent, so I wouldn't want to put any negative assessment on how he'd do. Nor would I wish him to do poorly if he went that direction. Quite the contrary, actually.
This is more a 'justice' issue to me. Throughout history, struggles have been long and agonizing to achieve 'justice' for whatever 'cause' was being championed. Clearly freecell is utterly trivial compared to the courageous battles by those whom we admire for their persistence and vision in history. I wouldn't begin to compare what I'm doing here to those things - other than the dogged determination to right a wrong. It's just not fair to the overwhelming majority of players who don't cheat. I try not to bring this up often........................................................but keep bringing it up I will, as long as I see the injustice. And it's (99+%) not for my sake, but for the sake of us all - and the integrity (what's left of it) of the site overall. And I try to keep it non-personal, and try to not attack Tony personally. Only the practice.
But I'll point out that he has yet to answer the repeated questions as to why, if it's only about winning a particular game, he doesn't do the repeated plays anonymously. As well as his multiple comments here and there about how much a certain game has raised his ELO/ELG. And even just above, his "I wonder if I have more "first wins" than anybody else?" To me, those are very telling items.
Date: Sat May 15 15:19:36 2021
User: Klepp
Message:I suspect it's OCD re: putting stuff in its proper order; Tony did professionally analyze and collate data for CERN back in the day, no?
Date: Sat May 15 16:37:26 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:Correct, Kleep. And then, 27 years with the WHO! I've lived in Geneva since 1965.
I'm not sure about the 'OCD' -- possibly. I abhor making mistakes! I have always used tools, and I had some excellent coworkers!
Plus, I will happily admit to liking to do well at Freecell. Checkout my 12x2 streak!
If I need to use cards (eg w6x5), then I will happily enjoy useing cards.
Back when I was the WWC/SSC score keeper, I actively promoted using cards!
WOW, the scoring has sure come a long way since then!!! .... Thanks, Joey! .... Thanks, Hop!
Date: Sat May 15 18:26:06 2021
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:We all know the story of Keith Moon. And then most of us know they selected Kenny Jones to take over (not the same as "filling his shoes", of course, as that would have been impossible). But what's almost unknown is that at some point, this Jones fellow began to "have issues".........so........they pulled this crazy math guy out of his studious pursuits in Switzerland, got all the make-up people to do their thing, and now they had the secret guy to *really* give them the punch they had been craving. At first.....it was hard to schedule touring around his work schedule - but they solved that ultimately with an appeal to his 'higher functions' (accidental pun), and the rest, as they say, is history. Or........maybe now that he's revealing himself.......his story.
Hard to believe that run went 27 years......
Date: Sun May 16 08:48:21 2021
User: ix
Message:tony, it's not that you hate making mistakes, it's that you hate having them documented. the rest of us accept them, not as mistakes, but as attempts.
Date: Sun May 16 10:21:52 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:@ ix. .... The "I abhor making mistakes" comment was meant more generally, and as an "admission" that I might be obsessive/compulsive! I prefer to think of myself as meticulous (good attention to detail)!
In my carrer, at CERN, and at the WHO, mistakes were always reported, and documented, and fixed, asap! There were never any coverups, as far as I know! I Suspect that coverups are far less common in Public Health, and Science, than in business and government.
Date: Sun May 16 10:30:13 2021
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:TT, can we assume that those mistakes were recorded in order to make the organization better? If so, then why not record your mistakes here to make this a better site?
Date: Sun May 16 10:46:09 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:I think I've lost at least 3375 games on this site! You do NOT want to see them all "reported", imo!
Actually, I have reported some games that I was unable to win, in this thread (which was its original purpose).
Date: Sun May 16 11:16:11 2021
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:Why do I not want to see them all "reported"?
Date: Sun May 16 11:43:07 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:Because it is too many?????
Date: Sun May 16 11:55:48 2021
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Good gracious. That is almost "thru the looking glass".
Excellent questions there, Mr. The_Inquisitor.
Date: Sun May 16 12:49:17 2021
User: The_Inquisitor
Message:But, you have been on this site for 17 years, haven't you? Isn't that about 200 loses per year, less than one a day? Is less than one a day too many?????
Date: Sun May 16 13:35:01 2021
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Just out of curiosity.................do you also keep track of your tennis matches, how many losses, etc?
Date: Sun May 16 13:57:47 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:No, but I do wear a step counter, and record my steps every day! Yesterday it was: 17,491 (Ytd = 2,361,231).
My total for last year was: 5,838,862. That's a lot of walking (and tennis).
Date: Sat May 22 08:17:53 2021
User: Gulbis
Message:You Win
Game #: 9x2 17399
Game stats: 16/1/6.25%
Difficulty: 8
Elapsed: 20:36
Date: Sat May 22 22:22:05 2021
User: Klepp
Message:10X1 25355-7 one of two...first dude who tried crapped out.
Date: Sat May 22 23:01:27 2021
User: Klepp
Message:10X1 11112-7 ibid.
Date: Mon May 24 16:12:50 2021
User: JackStraw
Message:anyone want to and figure this one out without using cards
8x2
diff 5
#4287
62/1 1.61 %
Date: Thu May 27 08:01:59 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:Game #: 10x1 18522-5; ....... Game stats: 38/1/2.63%; ....... Moves: 50/149.
Date: Thu May 27 09:53:17 2021
User: byronsmoot
Message:You Win
Game #: 7x2 12871
Game stats: 13/1/7.69%
Difficulty: 5
Elapsed: 2:31
Streak: 1
Today: 1
Date: Thu May 27 12:22:53 2021
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:Believe me.............that 50/149 should be closer to 100/249. My Jacks and 8s are still sore!
Date: Sun May 30 06:40:06 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:Gosh, another good win using cards:
Game #: 10x1 17486-9; ...... Game stats: 32/1/3.13%.
That should help boost my Elo score, after yesterday's bad 10x0 experience!
Date: Sun May 30 07:37:16 2021
User: ix
Message:wow, i tank my elo on purpose and get threatened on both motf and a thread, and this gets nothing.
Date: Sun May 30 18:28:13 2021
User: ElGuapo
Message:Sorry, ix, Denny's initial reaction to your tanking was for a different reason. You made the ratings spike in the variant you were playing. I assumed it was someone doing that deliberately under a throwaway nick, not whatever it was you were doing. Your tanking was still a problem for the ratings, but obviously not an attempt to cheat. I would have said something earlier but didn't want to out you.
For my part I've been open about my feelings on Tony's play. It's obviously cheating in my book. He disagrees and I don't feel any particular animosity toward him for it, but if it were my site I'd have banned his user name a long time ago. He could play as anonymous instead.
Date: Mon May 31 21:11:51 2021
User: ix
Message:thank you for the explanation, i appreciate it
Date: Tue Jun 1 00:59:00 2021
User: redberet
Message:12x0-11 3432 1/1
First time played, but what was unusual about it was that it took 17 moves to open a column.
Date: Tue Jun 1 02:31:52 2021
User: sebcbien2
Message:few interesting ones:
12x0-6 20157 5/1
12x0-6 22697 8/1
12x0-6 17569 4/1
redberet, what is the purpose of playing level 11 ?
on the opposite of yours, this one 12x0-5 14837 was won in 7 moves
Date: Tue Jun 1 04:25:44 2021
User: redberet
Message:secbcbien2, it most definitely is not to make a streak. I looked at your last days play and the highest rated game was 1649 with the majority in 1200-1500 range. but it got down to as low as 858. I don't want to pull a trigger on something like that. With 11's mostly unplayed a win or loss is 1851.
Date: Tue Jun 1 07:33:18 2021
User: byronsmoot
Message:Re: redberet
12x0-11 3432 1/1
First time played, but what was unusual about it was that it took 17 moves to open a column.
(9) moves to clear column 7
Date: Tue Jun 1 11:51:09 2021
User: redberet
Message:byronsmoot I'm impressed, I had put it down as a loss and just started moving cards. I can't keep track of that many moves ahead. I hope never to have that many curves in road again for such a short journey.
Date: Tue Jun 1 12:12:48 2021
User: Iammeonly
Message:redberet's post reminds me of Lombard street in San Francisco.
Post follow-up