Subject: Never won winnables!
Date: Sun Aug 21 19:04:29 2022
User: datrox-3
Message:OK. Not easy even with hints ;-) The clearing of column 3 is important. I sent diamonds home only to 4. I had to keep spade 3 for a long time. On column 1 I didn't build much, instead I freed the ace of hearts. More than 80 tries ...
Date: Sun Aug 21 21:18:18 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:Strangely easy for a 1/7 game:
You Win
Game: 9x2 23442-11
Game stats: 7/1/14.3%/1915
Date: Mon Aug 22 02:16:09 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
6 tries
Game: 11x0 7100-8
Game stats: 86/1/1.2%
Date: Wed Aug 24 05:57:11 2022
User: Goosey_Goosey_Gander
Message:6X5 Winnable (???????????????). 5916-5, zero wins in 17 played. I cannot see a solution to this one.
Date: Wed Aug 24 16:08:26 2022
User: WRAC
Message:Game: 6x5 5916-5
Game stats: 82/1/1.2%
Player Elo: n/a
Elapsed: 5:26
One of the most brutal games I've ever played.
56 attempts.
Hint: Send diamonds home. LOTS of them.
Date: Thu Aug 25 17:32:03 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:@ WRAC.
What a difference Elo makes. Without the games Elo, you probably would have decided it was unwinnable!
Btw, after you have lost a game, it is certainly preferable to use cards, rather than run up 55 losses, imo!
Date: Thu Aug 25 19:34:03 2022
User: joeygray
Message:No, it isn't.
Date: Thu Aug 25 20:19:24 2022
User: WRAC
Message:Actually, Tony, if you look above, you'll see Goosey_Goosey_Gander first played it as a winnable, so we both knew it was winnable on first play. (Not that that helped us any!)
But to your point, although it didn't seem totally intractable at first glance, yes, I might have given up after 20-25 tries if I hadn't known it was winnable. Then again, it never seemed totally hopeless, so, if it had been in a tournament, I would have kept playing, at least until time expired.
As for using cards, I'm with joey on this one (as usual), so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Date: Fri Aug 26 02:47:46 2022
User: Klepp
Message:TitanicTonys_deckofcards must have an opinion, very possibly in opposition to Tony's own opinion...(sounds like a master/slave relationship, or at least sado/maso...
Date: Fri Aug 26 04:18:22 2022
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:Methinks my views on the subject are fairly well known - but at least he hasn't thrown me across the room in a while. But the only days I can rest is when he goes out of town. Yes, I guess that's masochistic, but as Popeye the Sailor would say "I yam what I yam." No point in repeating myself here, but if someone *must* know, I've created a website that lays it all out (yes, pun intended; snicker):
usingexternalaidsischeating.duh
Date: Fri Aug 26 04:40:06 2022
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:We didn't have much growing up. My mother was a stack of Ladies Home Journals; my father was a large cardboard box for shipping those brown paper towels to fast food places and such. Got banged around a lot on trucks, I think. Rough on the edges from that. (I've been told one of my great-grandmothers was a deck of canasta cards, or so the story goes.) So when I say "I yam what I yam"......................it's just that us little decks didn't have much opportunity. No baseball cards were ever in our futures; no fancy theatre programs; not even any lottery tickets. Far as I know, though, none of our brood has ever darkened or lightened the door of a Charmin plant. You just have to "play with the cards you're dealt", ya know?
Date: Fri Aug 26 06:12:39 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:Sorry, I hadn't seen G_G_G's post above. I'm sorry I spoke.
Date: Fri Aug 26 07:22:58 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:There are websites with .duh? So much opportunity there...
Date: Sat Aug 27 09:34:39 2022
User: Gulbis
Message:You Win
Game: 9x2 9400-9
Game stats: 12/1/8.3%/1962
Player Elo: 2525.443 ▲ 0.302
Elapsed: 11:34
Date: Sat Aug 27 19:58:14 2022
User: Klepp
Message:30057-7 9X2 first of 14 that game was worth more Elo than I got, just me whining...
Date: Sat Aug 27 22:52:49 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:average player ELO playing level 7's 9x2 is higher than the ELO for that 1/14 game. That would mean a 50% game level 7 should have an ELO at least that games 1865 ELO.
I had these 4 in a row the other day and added maybe 3 or 4 points.
23.1% 1682 3 13
26.7% 1663 4 15
42.9% 1565 3 7
25% 1667 3 12
In my view those should all be in the 1900 range.
Problem is that when elo's for the level were set the players elo's playing that level were unknown.
Date: Sun Aug 28 14:15:15 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:If the average 9x2-7 rating were too low they'd be taking points from players and hence moving up. Instead they've been moving down the past two months, though only by a few points. I don't doubt individual game ratings in 9x2-7 could be way off, but on average we seem to be fine there.
Date: Sun Aug 28 15:29:13 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:Using best yearly streaks, the average ELO for players playing 9x2x7 games is around 2000. For the 6 games listed in the above posts to have accurate ELO's, that would mean that weaker players were losing those games in the past. I can't think of any reasonable explanation why that would have occurred. None appear to have been tournament games. I'm guessing the progression of elo and percentage is linear and maybe should be a steepening curve.
Date: Sun Aug 28 15:47:00 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:That's a rather statistically-odd sequence of consecutive game #s there.
Date: Sun Aug 28 16:09:24 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:Those are the game ELO's not game numbers. It looks like they purge a week at a time. It was there for anyone to see when I posted. I hope your not trying to imply something nefarious.
Date: Wed Aug 31 21:05:43 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:Sorry, been busy. I should just say, rbw, that in general it's probably the case that the hardest games in any game level are underrated and the easiest games are overrated. We did a simple little thing when we were assigning ratings originally to move all ratings somewhat toward the mean. If I were doing it over, I'd have lessened that effect and allowed for a wider range. I assume this is what Kaos is feeling when he says that 6x4s are underrated. The hard ones might be, but the easy ones make up for it.
Date: Thu Sep 1 08:49:35 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:That sounds reasonable. Thanks
Date: Thu Sep 1 08:55:02 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:Not many plays for a level 6, but I guess it qualifies:
You Win
Game: 9x2 23853-6
Game stats: 7/1/14.3%/1819
Date: Thu Sep 1 15:05:32 2022
User: Klepp
Message:22993-6 9X2 first of seven...I regularly suffer a pedestrian's skills at the hands of this game, though not always...
Date: Thu Sep 1 16:11:22 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:"22993-6 9X2 first of seven...I regularly suffer a pedestrian's skills at the hands of this game, though not always..."
ELO Roulette was not as kind to you as my level 6 game. You need to complain more. :)
Date: Thu Sep 1 17:26:33 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:Game: 10x1 9209-8; ...... Game stats: 13/1/7.7%/1917; ...... Player Elo: 2306.988 ▲ 0.772.
It should have been worth more than 0.772, imo.
Date: Thu Sep 1 18:04:11 2022
User: ix
Message:cards are like frosted flakes, eh, tony?
Date: Thu Sep 1 20:52:03 2022
User: Klepp
Message:4228-5 9X1 first of 51 but a bunch of tries were mine super tough IMO
Date: Thu Sep 1 21:00:51 2022
User: Klepp
Message:The Elo clued me into its solvability...so I sort of took away the enjoyment of somebody beating it first try I suppose...bet whew! Pros can try to take that one on...solve it in one or two or three tries, better than me..
Date: Thu Sep 1 21:04:28 2022
User: Klepp
Message:Its Elo is now 2143...if one needs to beat that difficult a puzzle to retain Elo that high, I'll never get it...unless I play like a wimp (solely 12-sum)...
Date: Wed Sep 7 15:45:17 2022
User: redberet
Message:I love this variant. It just keeps on giving.
You Win
Game: 7x5 26657-11
Game stats: 8/1/12.5%/1900
Player Elo: 2020.843 ▲ 2.725
Elapsed: 4:26
Streak: 30
Today: 23
Date: Thu Sep 8 11:51:46 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:I guess there are still A LOT of unwon games out there:
Game: 8x1 11949-5; ..... Game stats: 6/1/16.7%/1900; ..... Player Elo: 2305.017 ▲ 0.714.
Date: Thu Sep 8 13:10:18 2022
User: WRAC
Message:9x2 17378-8
This game was 0/1 before I encountered it, 1/4 after I won it on the 3rd try.
It's not at all difficult once you see the solution, but there are numerous openings, and the seemingly most promising ones lead to defeat. At least that was my experience.
I'm guessing I *might* have been able to solve it on my first attempt if I'd stared at it for 15-20 minutes before clicking, but, at first glance, it didn't appear to require that sort of attention.
I'm thinking this is the type of game that separates the truly outstanding streakers (e.g., Hop) from the rest of us mortals.
Or maybe I missed something obvious, which is always a possibility.
Link: 9x2 17378-8
Date: Thu Sep 8 13:15:13 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:So............just for curiosity's sake......................had you been playing that game as a winnable, do you think more likely you'd have knocked it off first attempt?
Date: Thu Sep 8 15:41:44 2022
User: WRAC
Message:In this case, absolutely not. With so many options for play, I never would have considered it unwinnable on first play. It's only the games that look unwinnable where this would be a consideration.
Date: Thu Sep 8 17:09:44 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:Game: 6x3 6346-5: Game stats: 27/1/3.7%/2171; ..... Player Elo: 2307.646 ▲ 2.560.
Date: Thu Sep 8 17:41:48 2022
User: datrox-3
Message:I don't consider game 9x2 17378-8 as very difficult. But maybe it's a different playing style. I didn't find an "obvious" opening. Hence I stared at it for 5 minutes and had to play carefully after the not so obvious opening.
But what about this damned game 9x2 23982-7? According to its ELO (2105.818) it's winnable. But though I stared for hours at it I didn't find a solution. And even in replaying it I don't have any idea left.
Link: 9x2 23982-7
Date: Thu Sep 8 17:48:35 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:@ WRAC........✅
I haven't even looked at it. Maybe I should have before asking that question. Now I'm curious, with datrox3's post. Will take a gander later......
Date: Thu Sep 8 19:20:11 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:Game: 4x8 5447-5; ..... Game stats: 4/1/25%/1954; ..... Player Elo: 2308.576 ▲ 0.930.
Date: Thu Sep 8 23:18:04 2022
User: WRAC
Message:As I said, 9x2 17378-8 isn't difficult (once you see the solution), but it's easy to lose because it invites you down the wrong path. Unless you're an extremely cautious player (or have been warned), it's easy to get into a losing position. That was my experience anyway - these are the types of games that often kill my streaks.
As for 9x2 23982-7, yes that's a tough one. It took me 27 attempts, before I finally realized it takes a tricky CubicSprock maneuver to recover the free cell you have to give up at the start.
After moving the 8C and 7H to column 9 (after emptying it), move the 4H up, creating an empty column (but no free cells). Then move the 7H to the empty column before putting the 8C on the 9H. Voilà - you've got your free cell back!
That was my stumbling block, anyway. Like a lot of tough games, once I solved it, I wondered what took me so long.
Currently 2/121. I don't who else solved it.
Date: Fri Sep 9 00:20:47 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:" I don't (know) who else solved it."
It was another 19 attempts by myself but I am not sure if I have used a CSM I guess I haven't. I also cleared column 9 first though.
Date: Fri Sep 9 02:06:58 2022
User: Klepp
Message:This game's Elo ought to be 2100 or so, but opinions are cheap...
10x1 2608-9
Date: Fri Sep 9 06:49:25 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:Game: 5x5 26971-5; ..... Game stats: 5/1/20%/2136; ..... Player Elo: 2311.474 ▲ 2.180.
Wow, I've never lost a 5x5 game (I'm 3/3)!
# ___ Name ________ Streak ___ All Time ___ Plays ___ Adj.Win% ___ Total Time
1 ___ TitanicTony ______ 3 _________ 3 ________ 3 ________ 75.00 _______ 12.7m.
Gosh, it's wonderful what good results a mediocre player can get using cards!
Date: Fri Sep 9 09:38:48 2022
User: Narrows
Message:I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating.
Sophocles
Date: Fri Sep 9 13:16:53 2022
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:What he meant to say was "WE'VE never lost a 5x5 game".
Date: Fri Sep 9 13:29:03 2022
User: datrox-3
Message:I have found my masters - kudos to WRAC and Hop. I finally solved 9x2 23982-7. But even with hints it was hard.
To 9x2 17378-8: I was warned therefore I cannot be objective. My playing style in 9x2 is to empty one column and to have at least one freecell left (if the opening is complex then even two freecells). And so the game was not dangerous for me - it lasted to find any opening at all. But as I said I was warned.
Date: Fri Sep 9 15:53:00 2022
User: WRAC
Message:Game: 9x2 26728-8
Game stats: 10/1/10%
Player Elo: n/a
Elapsed: 2:32
Got this on my second try and was actually surprised to see it was winnable.
It's another example of the obvious (to me) route being wrong. Clear the column and then you're stuck.
So I tried a totally different (non-intuitive) approach on my 2nd attempt... and it turned out to be a very easy game!
Good luck, datrox-3, if you try it!
Date: Fri Sep 9 18:11:33 2022
User: datrox-3
Message:12:30 minutes. It lasted some time to see where I can clear a column and keep another freecell. And then I needed some time to see how to proceed. With all caution (I knew in advance it would be tricky), it would not have been a streakbuster. (I usually lose games because I don't feel like concentrating properly anymore - and I keep playing anyway.)
Post follow-up