Subject: Never won winnables!
Date: Fri Aug 3 13:22:39 2018
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Regarding w6x5 7368-10:
You should open the first column:
1d,1c,1b,1a,16,14,1a,1e,b1,2b,21,e2,...
Date: Sat Aug 4 06:46:25 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Congratulations, and THANKS! Now I have finally got it. Somehow I missed playing the J-S to Column-1. It is fairly easy after that. I guess that my ability to "see the obvious" is deteriorating with age (79).
Congratulations! You Win;..... Game #: 6x5 7368;..... Game stats: 3/2/66.67%;..... Difficulty: 10;..... Elapsed: 5:06.
Date: Sat Aug 4 12:09:29 2018
User: Punster
Message:Hey Tony, check it out =>
Congratulations! You Win
Game #: 12x1 3201
Game stats: 43/1/2.33%
Difficulty: 6
Date: Sat Aug 4 15:06:51 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Amazing! Well done! You have just reduced the number of never won 12x1/6 games from 5, to 4!
The remain 4 are:
1522 ,....... 31,..... 0,..... 0.00;
20786,..... 85,..... 0,..... 0.00;
29635,..... 28,..... 0,..... 0.00;
29938,..... 36,..... 0,..... 0.00.
Date: Fri Sep 7 18:55:34 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:This was indeed a tough one! ..... Congratulations! You Win
Game #: 6x6 8112; ...... Game stats: 5/1/20.00%; ...... Difficulty: 8; ...... Elapsed: 6:58; ...... Streak: 38.
Sorry about the other 4 players who had their streaks ended at level 8!
Or, perhaps it was just 1 player who tried 4 times??
Date: Tue Sep 11 10:06:33 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:WOW. I just knocked this off (first try), NOT playing the winnable flavor. Maybe some of you all who keep up with "unwon winnables" in the literal sense have tried this one and thought it possibly unwinnable?
10x1 5842-5
Game stats: 72/1/1.39%
Tricky...…..but boy was I shocked to see those stats!!
Date: Tue Sep 11 10:32:00 2018
User: joeygray
Message:Freecell-wise, there just ain't no better feeling TN.
Date: Tue Sep 11 12:50:26 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Congratulations, TN! I agree that it was tricky (but not THAT tricky, imo)!
But, I (and player #73) had the advantage of knowing it was winnable, and you didn't!!! So DOUBLE congratulations!!
It is now 3/74, so someone else has also gotten it on the first try!
[The first 71 tries may have been by less good players, or possibly just a few players trying 71 times.]
Congratulations! You Win;....... Game #: 10x1 5842-5;....... Game stats: 74/3/4.05%.
Date: Fri Sep 14 13:23:35 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Yep, this was definitely a tricky w6x5;.... Congratulations! You Win
Game #: 6x5 13089-7;.... Game stats: 11/1/9.09%;.... Streak: 21.
Date: Sat Sep 29 12:48:40 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Yea, this was definitely a good one to win! Congratulations! You Win;
Game #: 7x4 6283/10;......Game stats: 3/1/33.33%;...... Streak: 172.
Date: Sun Sep 30 11:03:15 2018
User: Ellie2
Message:This w4x10 game seems to me to be "impossible" -- well, too difficult for me.
Sorry You Lose
Game #: 14075
Game stats: 1/0/0.00%
Difficulty: 7
Elapsed: 5:10
Streak was: 25
Date: Tue Oct 23 07:20:31 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:I thought that this w6x5 game was fairly easy, but it was 0/7:
Congratulations! You Win;..... Game #: 6x5, 7699/8;..... Game stats: 8/1/12.50%;..... Elapsed: 4:05;..... Streak: 33.
Date: Tue Oct 23 10:50:23 2018
User: The_Interpreter
Message:If Denny instituted my idea of a WIN button, this wouldn't be a problem.
Date: Tue Oct 23 11:48:59 2018
User: joeygray
Message:That sort of joke is the kind that doesn't get any funnier by repetition.
Date: Tue Oct 23 11:58:07 2018
User: The_Interpreter
Message:Joke?? What is the difference between a WIN button and a deck of cards when it comes to Winnables?
The answer is that you get the same results, just faster.
Date: Tue Oct 23 13:12:30 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:SORRY to disagree, but there is a BIG difference, imo!
So far I have managed to lose 1086 winnable variant games!
I have also lost a lot of other winnable games -- 67 in 8x4, for example.
With a "WIN button", it could have been ZERO!
Except, I would NEVER use a "WIN button"! 1) that would not be playing the game, and 2) it would be no fun at all. !!!
The goal here, imo, is to enjoy playing the game!!! !!! !!!
Also, there is already an "Auto-win" procedure: when a game is "clearly" won, all the remaining cards are played automatically!
Date: Tue Oct 23 15:17:54 2018
User: joeygray
Message:For what it's worth, which is admittedly not much, there is not an auto-win feature in the game already. Most experienced players will tell you they are in a sure-win position well before the auto-play feature finishes the game for them. The auto-play feature plays a card for you to the talon only if a) it is playable, and b) you 100% are not going to need to play any other card on top of it. It plays such cards one at a time, then looks for the next such card. Obviously it is capable of playing every last card, but we've all seen a remainder tableau consisting of say the King of Hearts atop the Queen of Hearts and nothing else remaining, and even though it's a sure win, you have to make one more play.
Date: Tue Oct 23 16:45:35 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Thanks Joey -- my mistake. I should have said "auto-play", not "auto-win". And, you are quite correct, my discription of how it works was inaccurate! I have often wondered why auto-play doesn't finish off the game as soon as the number of cards remaining is equal to the number of columns plus the number of freecells?? I don't mind moving the HK off of the HQ, but some "remainder tableaus" require several additional plays, which I find somewhat irritating.
Date: Tue Oct 23 18:02:51 2018
User: The_Interpreter
Message:The WIN button would solve that irritation.
Date: Wed Oct 24 04:37:42 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Oh, shut up! [trying to stick to "polite" language here.] ..... No WIN button! Never! No, no, no...
You are a FAR greater irritation; one that probably cannot ever be "solved"... ... ...
Date: Wed Oct 24 10:56:52 2018
User: The_Interpreter
Message:Galileo experienced the same type of derision and opposition with his new ideas, too.
Date: Wed Oct 24 11:09:30 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Tony, although The_Interpreter's idea is (maybe?) tongue-in-cheek, it's technically accurate. The way you operate, if you lose a game it's only because you didn't do enough 'trial runs'. If 200 simulations isn't enough, then try 500. Or 5,000. You are only limited by your patience and remaining time left in your life. So what if a game takes 14 hours to solve if it preserves your streak of 8 million? (And I'm trying to be polite, too.)
Date: Wed Oct 24 11:36:00 2018
User: joeygray
Message:To expand a bit on the auto-play feature: the things it doesn't do. It doesn't play a card to an empty column, or to an empty freecell; only to the talon. It doesn't consider anything to do with the layout as a whole, such as open columns, freecells, or number of cards left, or what variant it is. It is a pure local judgement of each single playable card (the tops of all columns and the freecells) considered one at a time.
I also note here, just in case, that there is a separate mechanism - auto-move - which handles multiple cards moves from one column to another column. That's the extra help you get to move say a 2 thru 7 existing sequence onto an 8 of the proper color provided you have the 5 free freecells or the two freecells and a column required to make that move by hand. As it stands Denny shows graphically each of those individual moves, which has always been a nice touch. and so it's easy to see that any moves from auto-play take place after all the moves from auto-move are finished. Without both, or either actually, of these mechanisms the game would be greatly, maybe even fatally, less enjoyable to play.
Of course the gentleman jokester knows the inverse is also true. If the game did too much, it would also be greatly less enjoyable. A Win Button would be the reducto ad absurdum of doing too much.
Now, we can conceive of a game with a solver built right into it, that follows every one of your moves with an attempt to solve the game from the result position, and immediately informs you of the loss when you make a fatal move. (You see a little slice of that in the Microsoft version, which looks after every move to see if you have any legal moves left, and says you lost if there aren't any. But it will never tell you 'loss' if the only move left is moving say a black 4 from one red 5 to the other.) That's not the win button, but it is closely associated with it. I think it's a little tough to say whether THAT would make the game less enjoyable. (I assume that such a game would be all-winnable by definition, as it would be pointless to serve up a game and then say you lost before you even make a move. As ix says with some justification that unwinnables already are.)
Date: Thu Oct 25 05:01:04 2018
User: Ellie2
Message:Yeaaaa I got it! Congratulations! You Win
Game #: 5x7 4475
Game stats: 5/1/20.00%
Difficulty: 5
Elapsed: 4:35
Streak: 10
Date: Wed Oct 31 07:09:28 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Slightly tricky; just barely worth mentioning: Congratulations! You Win;
Game #: 5x6 29539-5;.... Game stats: 3/1/33.33%;.... Streak: 10.
Date: Sat Nov 3 11:16:18 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Tough one. Didn't think I'd pull it off:
Game #: 7x4 22967-6
Game stats: 5/1/20.00%
Date: Thu Nov 15 20:31:33 2018
User: Klepp
Message:27618-6 10X1 previously lost to 16 times, tough...
Date: Thu Nov 22 20:37:59 2018
User: Klepp
Message:25137-5 9X1 21 previous losses
Date: Fri Nov 30 17:51:55 2018
User: Klepp
Message:9X1 7903, first in 33 attempts...lost twice personally, sadly...
Date: Tue Dec 4 02:38:47 2018
User: Klepp
Message:11560 9X1 24 previous losses, none personal...
Date: Fri Dec 7 23:32:59 2018
User: Klepp
Message:29644 9X1 28 previous losses, none personal
Date: Wed Dec 12 07:07:25 2018
User: Ellie2
Message:This one wasn't so difficult, imo, but it did take me 62 moves.
Game #: 5x6 5327
Game stats: 3/1/33.33%
Difficulty: 5
Date: Thu Dec 13 04:24:06 2018
User: Ellie2
Message:This one seemed easy, and it only took me 48 moves.
Game #: 10x1 31020
Game stats: 3/1/33.33%
Difficulty: 6
Date: Thu Dec 13 11:02:24 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Fun game here...…. I strongly suspected this one wanted to be whupped the first time thru, but couldn't quite see the line, but got it second time around.
10x1-6 #6962 Now 1/9.
Date: Fri Dec 14 18:40:26 2018
User: Klepp
Message:18331 9X1 36 previous losses, none personal
Date: Thu Dec 20 14:46:56 2018
User: rws33315
Message:I was surprised to be first to win 11x0-8, 18185! Now 1/19. It won Zany Tourny for me. I must have just chosen the correct line! Was 1/11 when I got it.
Date: Fri Dec 21 02:47:08 2018
User: Klepp
Message:26409, 9X1, 27 previous attempts, lost once personally
Date: Sat Dec 22 12:27:35 2018
User: d164280
Message:Started the day with easy games in a number of variants, then 11x0. Started with 3 unwinnable, a 25%, 31%, then this jewel 21015-5, first try now 1/23.
Date: Mon Dec 31 04:52:59 2018
User: Klepp
Message:14484 9X1 18 attempts, pitifully three personal
Date: Wed Jan 2 01:32:20 2019
User: Klepp
Message:12430 9X1 29 previous losses, two personal
Date: Wed Jan 2 20:42:50 2019
User: bullsgits
Message:11x1 11498-9 Winnable. But not by me.
bullsgits
Date: Fri Jan 11 16:19:51 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:Just got this one:
Congratulations!
You Win
Game #:
5x7 11801
Game stats:
3/1/33.33%
Difficulty:
5
Elapsed:
20:36
I only bring it up because it fits my new theory...5x7's (and 4x8's) are WAY more winnable than I thought. I made some moves to start this one, thinking it was a dead end...I had been thinking about it forever (Elapsed 20:36 is underreporting because I was staring at the screen for so long, freecell.net had timed out but since I didn't touch the screen, it remained visible to me) and decided it was an unwinnable but just made the most promising moves (which I thought I had convinced myself wouldn't work). Turned out I eventually saw a way out.
The other two attempts are not mine.
James
Date: Sat Jan 12 13:33:59 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:Here's another one to my point...first try for me:
Game #: 5x7 24453
Game stats: 5/1/20.00%
Difficulty: 5
Elapsed: 44:04
Date: Tue Jan 15 12:02:17 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:Along those lines...….which point has been made multiple times in the past, btw.....
4x8 #445-5
Now 1/3. Tough, but pretty interesting game. Didn't think it would work out, but plowed thru it.
Date: Tue Jan 15 15:56:53 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:"which point has been made multiple times in the past, btw"
Which point?
Date: Tue Jan 15 22:30:13 2019
User: bullsgits
Message:11 X 1 Winnable, game #23347 Difficulty 8. 0 fer 2, the second loss was me. 1 for 3 now.
bullsgits
Date: Wed Jan 16 11:27:36 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:james, what I meant was that the topic of variants that are easier than one might think - to include (I'm virtually certain) 5x7s and 4x8s - has been discussed in considerable detail. Unfortunately, Denny's search function doesn't work with numbers, so it's impossible to find topics with those terms in the subject line or body - except by laborious, lengthy scrolling. In fact, such things used to be a moderately common topic at Hotel Netcell - deceased, unfortunately, since 2014, I believe. At the hotel, there were even charts, etc., statistically comparing all the variants, in terms of winning percentage at each climate level, *hypothetical* winnable percentages, relative difficulties, etc. I think you've been on this site longer ago than that, but I don't recall you being involved in discussions that far back. Excuse me if I'm in error on that point. Anyway, such discussions have also taken place on this board, although in much less depth and much less frequently. For a number of years, there was good "crosstalk" between the two sites.
I know that 7x3s were quite often discussed, with several top players noting how many were winnable (>95%), relative to what one might think. Same with 5x7s (also >95%). I'm sure 4x8s (perhaps in the 80% range?) were discussed, but I don't think as often.
Although the Wayback Machine can show some old pages from the hotel, the actual pages with the substance of the topics apparently aren't archived. I suspect some of those still occasionally on this site have some of those archives stored on their personal computers, but that's just a guess. I have linked the page that shows some of the topics (page 1 of at least 6). Unlike this site, that one was very dense in regards to statistics, quantitative analysis, etc.
I'm not going to take the time (referenced in my first paragraph above) to search this site for those topics here. I perhaps should have mentioned that I was including the hotel when I above wrote: "...which point has been made multiple times in the past". Most here (certainly not all) who are interested in such data either took part in discussions on that site, or were familiar with it as sort of a parallel, but more statistically-relevant 'universe'. But that is not to dismiss such in-depth discussions here as well - they're just too scattered to find without great difficulty.
Further...………...if one just searches for "Hotel" in the subject line of topics on *this* site, one will find about 20 or so (including duplicates) threads concerning said hotel. I haven't taken the time to explore those right now, but you may want to for other possible discussions.
I certainly welcome any of those who see this to weigh in on your question.
Link: old Hotel Netcell site
Date: Wed Jan 16 12:27:28 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:TN,
I couldn't get to the 2nd link to work. But I do remember the existence of Hotel NetCell. You are correct...I've been here long enough to know about it but never did use it at all.
Still...I think free@last's data does not agree with a win percentage of 80% for 4x8's. I think it is considerably lower than that. Hop and I were talking about using that data to get expected values for All Time streaks (which you know about I know because you started talking about your All Time streak in 12x0 as a strange outlier).
Strangely, free@last's data is missing most levels of 5x7 so I don't know much about it from actual data, but I would be VERY surprised if it was winnable >95% of the time.
My post was indeed about how surprisingly winnable they are but I wasn't thinking those kinds of numbers. Mostly, I amazed at how effective the strategy (which is a definite poor strategy in many other flavors) of putting up as many cards as possible onto the home stacks. Usually if I put up too many clubs, say, I'm going to lose because I don't have a way to move some red cards around. But with 5x7 and 4x8, I find getting rid of cards is a fine strategy because I can use the large number of freecells to move stuff around.
James
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