Subject: Never won winnables!

Date: Sat Jun 8 17:09:08 2019
User: Patti_Scialfa
Message:
Hello! 8x2-5 #28631 50/1/2.00% To be clear, second try, altho I recognized in the middle of the first try it was about to be let out of it's misery.

Date: Mon Jun 17 18:41:44 2019
User: rws33315
Message:
Game #: 12x0 24844 Game stats: 25/1/4.00% Difficulty: 5 Elapsed: 4:36 Streak: 5 Today: 5 It's always fun to be the first to win one!

Date: Mon Jun 17 18:43:35 2019
User: 82nd_Airborne
Message:
4x8 6/1/16.67 19025-5 Diamonds are the key.

Date: Thu Jun 27 06:19:32 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
This one was definitely a bit tricky! Game #: 7x4 20010-7;...... Game stats: 5/1/20.00%;...... Elapsed: 3:33;...... Streak: 29.

Date: Thu Jul 4 17:51:13 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
WOW!!! I lost this game 3 times!...... Then I took a long break....... When I finally came back to it, inspiration finally struck: Congratulations! You Win....... Game #: 10x1 12948-5;...... Game stats: 70/1/1.43%;...... Elapsed: 2:42. I wonder if anyone else will care to try it?

Date: Fri Jul 5 10:06:18 2019
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:
Obviously I could do it from 'memory' if I wanted to - but why bother? I need to rest whenever he allows it!!

Date: Fri Jul 5 18:57:15 2019
User: joeygray
Message:
Deck: You really ought to stop, both in general and in particular. In general, because, well, the point has been made; the finger has been wagged; the moral high ground has been occupied; the horse has long since breathed his last. And in particular, when Tony plays and wins a particular numbered game by selecting its number, no matter how, he is *not* messing with the streak database, nor the game stats database - at least no more than the game getting selected for a tournament does - and so there IS no moral high ground to tsk from. So anyway, if you must beat this dead horse, at least wait until the rotting flesh is actually present.

Date: Fri Jul 5 19:15:41 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Thanks, Joey!! And, the stupid "deck" is REALLY stupid, and has no memory at all (and an IQ of zero)!

Date: Fri Jul 5 19:52:47 2019
User: redberet
Message:
Game # 5x7 14715-5 13/1 7.69 62/150 10:05 Got it on second try, wasn't sure what red 3 I needed, looks like I guessed right. All the way!

Date: Sat Jul 6 19:35:58 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
WOW, I can't believe it! Where do these (nearly) impossible games come from??? Congratulations! You Win;.... Game #: 10x1 25767-7;.... Game stats: 23/1/4.35%;.... Elapsed: 3:52;.... Streak: 28;.... Today: 4. At least it wasn't level 5, like my previous tough one (Thu Jul 4 17:51:13 2019)!

Date: Sun Jul 7 16:56:00 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Gee, gosh, I just got another one! Congratulations! You Win;.... Game #: 10x1 23037-6;.... Game stats: 16/1/6.25%.... Elapsed: 3:57;.... Streak: 15;.... Today: 15.

Date: Wed Jul 10 12:18:37 2019
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:
joey - I respect your opinion, but maybe I don't understand what Tony's doing. To me, even if he selects an unwinnable game from the 8x3 list some of you are working from, and solves it "artificially", that seems to me that he would be corrupting the game stats database. Or, for example, the one right above my previous post. He "won" a game of 10x1 to make it 1/70. I know there exists a dataset of known winnable 10x1s, as that's what free@last did. I don't know if that list has been 'published', but it really doesn't matter (much). To me, such a "win" is artificial (assuming my help was utilized). What if someone 10 years in the future encounters that game, and after losing, sees that it was winnable (had the event recounted above NOT have taken place). That's a completely different experience than seeing it as a random game encountered, losing, and then playing it X number of times to be the first one to conquer it (had Tony's and my interference not happened). Or, more critically.............should at that point in the future, said player should happen to win that game, being the first to conquer it, to maybe then make it 1/100 - that's a TOTALLY different experience than it then being 2/100. Do you see that point? And that's even besides the statistical deviance that represents. This is completely different from what ix is doing by posting the unwon games in 8x3. While a solver is proving they're winnable, they are still 'officially' unwon, and the stats database will so show. Thus no corruption. Also, it think it is clear that he IS corrupting the streak database if he selects and plays a game that indeed counts toward his streak(s). We have some pretty nice streaks, that would be impressive were they legitimate. Imagine if he should happen to achieve #1 in some variant with my assistance!! Is that fair? Is that truly "not messing with the streak database"? I don't see how that could be the conclusion. Further, and this I suspect you'll disagree with, there are new players coming onto this site all the time, and new readers reading this message board. My opinion is that they need to be aware of this practice - that there are cheaters in our midst. Just like tyranny, or evil, or underhandedness of any sort, it should continuously be pointed out and attempts made to stymie such. I could of course demonstrate this with current geopolitical issues but Denny wouldn't be too keen on that. Such things shouldn't just be allowed to continue and fester unopposed. Soon we arrive at the frog-in-the-pot-of-boiling-water scenario. So you may disagree, but seems to me that does indeed represent some moral high ground (or maybe more accurately, the lack of moral low ground). While, we have already significantly corrupted the database (imo), there is still more damage we can, and likely will, do. Believe me, I don't like doing this, either. I find no joy in this practice. I certainly don't, and won't, post these kinds of messages continually, or even often, but I do think other players need to be made aware from time-to-time what's going on. Further still.....................................I'm sure we all suspect there are others here who perhaps practice these dark arts, and yet don't admit to such. Perhaps(?) such admonitions will weigh on the conscience of said players, and persuade them to play fairly. We can hope that.........

Date: Wed Jul 10 14:30:44 2019
User: joeygray
Message:
You can't select a game by number and have it count for a streak. While I certainly respect, and share, your view that being the first to solve a game is a huge shot of glee for anyone, I have to differ that what Tony's doing is significant in denying that to you. You must know that free's machine-solving and ix's publishing lists of such games, and the entire community swarming over them to solve them, is the driver behind that. Take a look at WRAC's method, for example. He just plays them over and over with replay, seeing different possibilities with each play, and I don't see that as materially different from what you might do with notes or a deck. It's true in a lesser sense in the entire game stats database: every replay that anyone has ever hit because "oh, I see how I coulda won that" is equally guilty. If we had a game stats database that was free of tournament/custom/replay data then I'd accept your point, but we don't. What Tony does when he counts a deck-won game as a streak win, of course, I agree with you 100% is a corruption - messing with the streak database - to be laid at his feet. Though it's been done already, like I said.

Date: Thu Jul 11 09:01:57 2019
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
This was tough. I didn't count but most of the retries are mine. Game #: 8x2 16892 Game stats: 44/1/2.27% Difficulty: 11 Elapsed: 2:49

Date: Thu Jul 11 12:02:09 2019
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:
joeygray: "Take a look at WRAC's method, for example. He just plays them over and over with replay, seeing different possibilities with each play, and I don't see that as materially different from what you might do with notes or a deck. It's true in a lesser sense in the entire game stats database: every replay that anyone has ever hit because "oh, I see how I coulda won that" is equally guilty." ------------- To me, they're quite different. If one (say WRAC, for example) plays the game over and over and over - without external aids - that's still a different animal, because he is only using his (large) brain. If he has to work up a 30-move sequence in his head, he can. Tony can't - or at least has shown he doesn't want to try hard enough. That's the difference right there. While those two methods may both end up being, say, 50 'attempts' (counting each move take-back by Tony and I as a failed attempt), WRAC's would be legitimate, whereas Tony's are artificial, and actually represent a series of easier and easier mini-games, once he's selected a 'track'. If we (Tony and I) get to a point where we've cleared a column, for example, he then has a new 'starting point' for the rest of the game. Of course clearing a column is just a proxy for any particular critical inflection point in any particular game. Not always that simple, but I think you get the point. Another way to think of it is to imagine that Tony and I are having trouble digging out a particular key card buried deep in a stack. WRAC would think that through, and the implications thereof, FROM THE BEGINNING - or at least is mentally keeping track of the implications of moving each card - over and over again as necessary. Tony and I may have created a much-later-in-the-game new "starting point", and don't have to start at the beginning on each following 'attempt'. To me, that appears to be a HUGE advantage. I had temporarily forgotten (but knew better) that one can't select a game number and have it count for a streak. You used the phrase "no matter how" up above, and I let that confuse me a bit, and that's the part I was referring to when I wrote: "...but maybe I don't understand what Tony's doing". Seemed a bit strange to me at the time, so I withdraw that single part of my argument, while letting the larger points stand. As to the "shot of glee" (well-put), it's not so much that (although that's a thing large enough to have started this thread to begin with), as it is, again, that the dataset has been corrupted. A game that's 2/100 is by implication (although of course not necessarily truly accurate) only half as hard as one that's 1/100. Don't latch onto that particular example - it's only for illustration purposes. And we all know that a game that shows up in a tournament could well have 50 quick failed attempts. But those are 'real' brain-generated attempts, even if short-lived, and would be inherently "superior" to anything Tony and I lay down on his table. At least we agree that it seems as though the damage to the streak database is the greatest implied threat from us.

Date: Thu Jul 11 17:36:07 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
The streak database was "corrupted" long before you arrived on the scene! The difference is that I openly advocate using cards!!! For me, it is much more fun than running up a (large) bunch of losses! And, of course, it often allows me keep my streak going, which I also enjoy, 🙂!

Date: Fri Jul 19 23:55:49 2019
User: Klepp
Message:
24810 8X2 first of 36 on first attempt--satisfied with that, but this f***in' variant regularly pisses me off and makes me feel dimwitted.

Date: Sun Jul 21 12:57:59 2019
User: rws33315
Message:
4 X 10 2561-5 3 plays no wins this one looked tough to me

Date: Sun Jul 28 21:01:51 2019
User: mrbuck
Message:
11x1 25977-6, 10/1/10%. The sun don't shine one one old dog's ass all the time, this time it shined on mine. mrbuck

Date: Sun Jul 28 23:25:53 2019
User: redberet
Message:
4x10 2561-5 4/1 25% 66/190 11:18

Date: Mon Jul 29 07:13:34 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
I was very pleased to win this one! It is the first time I have played a 4x9 in nearly 9 years (since 08 Oct 2012). Just to please joeygrey, and his new 11-12-13 Sum Competition! Congratulations! You Win;..... Game #: 4x9 3297-5;..... Game stats: 3/1/33.33%;..... Streak: 5;..... 54/129. Total # of games played: 5;..... % Win: 100%.

Date: Wed Jul 31 05:01:06 2019
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
From today's freakout: Game #: 8x2 27795 Game stats: 52/1/1.92% Difficulty: 8 Elapsed: 2:18

Date: Thu Aug 1 17:42:06 2019
User: Klepp
Message:
8X2 11749-5 first of 38, I find all sorts of this variant's 25-percenters more difficult than this, though...

Date: Sun Aug 4 02:39:55 2019
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
If I didn't know it was winnable, I would give it up easily: Game #: 13x0 2392 Game stats: 127/1/0.79% Difficulty: 9 Elapsed: 14:48

Date: Sun Aug 4 19:41:54 2019
User: Klepp
Message:
18009-5 8X2...first of 58 on first try? This game beats me too much, but I beat its azz here.

Date: Sun Aug 4 20:16:44 2019
User: Klepp
Message:
18098-5 8X2 second try of 42...

Date: Mon Aug 5 17:34:12 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
Second attempt for me on Hop's 13x0: Game #: 13x0 2392 Game stats: 133/2/1.50% Difficulty: 9 Elapsed: 2:18 Didn't seem too hard. Certainly I would expect it to be solved in a well-attended Zany Zero tournament.

Date: Sun Aug 18 15:59:16 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
This is probably my most difficult w4x10 game ever! Sorry You Lose..... Game #: 9664,.... Game stats: 1/0/0.00%,.... Difficulty: 10,.... Streak was: 68. I hate to lose a w4x10 streak of 68! I would sure like to know how this game can be won??

Date: Tue Aug 20 07:37:00 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Gosh, already another difficult w4x10 game! At this rate, I will never get back up to 68 (sigh)! Congratulations! You Win..... Game #: 4x10 9823,.... Game stats: 5/1/20.00%,.... Difficulty: 5,.... Streak: 9.

Date: Tue Aug 20 10:06:07 2019
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:
I've heard him muttering under his breath that I might be replaced! I'm doing the best I can!!!

Date: Tue Aug 20 20:43:21 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
Solved this in a Zany (although it took about half-a-dozen tries): Game: 9x0 23538-1 Plays: 45 Wins: 1 Percentage: 2.22

Link: Tough 9x0

Date: Thu Aug 29 16:18:38 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
This one was tricky:.... Congratulations! You Win;.... Game #: 5x7 27772-5; Game stats: 10/1/10.00%;.... Elapsed: 4:12;.... Streak: 3;.... Today: 3.

Date: Thu Aug 29 17:35:45 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
The dealer isn't being nice to me! Or, maybe he is; at least they are winnable:.... Congratulations! You Win Game #: 5x6 21403-5;.... Game stats: 4/1/25.00%;.... Elapsed: 4:38;.... Streak: 5;.... Today: 1.

Date: Thu Aug 29 18:22:53 2019
User: Klepp
Message:
9X1 20623-5 Rather difficult, only after multiple attempts did I solve.

Date: Thu Aug 29 18:24:06 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
TT wrote: "Sorry You Lose..... Game #: 9664,.... Game stats: 1/0/0.00%,.... Difficulty: 10,.... Streak was: 68." I gave this a number of tries and nothing seems to pan out. It needs some type of different out-of-the-box solution.

Date: Sun Sep 1 18:22:37 2019
User: Ellie2
Message:
This was a difficult game and unfortunately it took me two tries, so back to zero (again). Congratulations! You Win Game #: 4x10 1973-5 Game stats: 12/1/8.33%

Date: Tue Sep 3 19:01:40 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
Game #: 8x2 25647 Game stats: 21/1/4.76% Difficulty: 5 Elapsed: 3:09 Solved on the 2nd attempt.

Date: Wed Sep 4 14:26:39 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
Nice to get this one on the first try: Game #: 8x2 7980 Game stats: 35/1/2.86% Difficulty: 5 Elapsed: 3:26 Streak: 8 Today: 8

Date: Wed Sep 4 21:11:04 2019
User: Klepp
Message:
9X1 2809-5 first of 29 first try, moderate difficulty.

Date: Thu Sep 5 13:19:36 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Having lost my (regular) 10x1 streak at 12, I was very pleased to win this one! Congratulations! You Win. Game #: 10x1 30999-6; ..... Game stats: 5/1/20.00%; ..... Elapsed: 3:09; ..... Streak: 12; ..... Today: 12.

Date: Thu Sep 5 16:32:47 2019
User: Klepp
Message:
9X1 5594-5 first of 28 I wish it had only taken me one attempt.

Date: Tue Sep 10 13:41:51 2019
User: Ellie2
Message:
This one was really tough, imo. I would have given up, if I hadn't known it was winnable. I don't like 4x10 very much. Congratulations! You Win Game #: 4x10 2960-5 Game stats: 10/1/10.00% Elapsed: 3:28 Streak: 10 Today: 4

Date: Wed Sep 11 09:47:40 2019
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
I couldn't win this one during the tournament (freakout): Game #: 6x4 26794 Game stats: 12/1/8.33% Difficulty: 10 Elapsed: 3:40

Date: Wed Sep 11 15:25:43 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
Couldn't win this first try while streaking: Game #: 6x4 30773 Game stats: 62/1/1.61% Difficulty: 5 Elapsed: 3:02

Date: Wed Sep 11 15:57:13 2019
User: JackStraw
Message:
10x1 game 26984 1 win out of 74 game 20655 0 for 74 I got em within minutes of each other can't buy a win streak

Date: Tue Sep 17 08:23:54 2019
User: TitanicTony
Message:
I thought this w7x4 game was fairly easy, but somehow it had never been won before! Congratulations! You Win;..... Game #: (w)7x4 4099-10;..... Game stats: 3/1/33.33%; Difficulty: 10;;..... Elapsed: 5:24;..... Streak: 200;..... Today: 1;..... Moves: 61/177.

Date: Thu Sep 19 18:16:47 2019
User: WRAC
Message:
Game #: 6x5 24545 Game stats: 50/1/2.00% Difficulty: 5 Elapsed: 5:04 Streak: 8 Today: 8 I followed this act by losing a previously 9/15 game. A little later: Game #: 6x5 31509 Game stats: 15/1/6.67% Difficulty: 5 Elapsed: 3:06 Streak: 8 Today: 8 Followed by a careless loss 3 games later. Sometimes I get lucky, but I'll never be a great streaker because I simply don't enjoy staring at the tough games for 10 minutes or more to make sure I'm on the right path. Kudos to those of you who do (joey, james et al) - keep it up!

Date: Thu Sep 19 21:56:35 2019
User: joeygray
Message:
I do enjoy it, that's true, but I am just not disciplined enough to do it game after game. Sometimes I have to enjoy digging myself out the kind of hole I never shoulda been in in the first place :(

Date: Fri Sep 20 14:42:15 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:
11x0 12482-5 Game stats: 30/1/3.33% Unfortunately, 2nd try.

Date: Wed Sep 25 14:44:31 2019
User: joeygray
Message:
Game #: 6x6-8 21545 Game stats: 4/1/25.00% Elapsed: 52:13 I know it had only been lost three times before, but still: I was mighty pleased to have worked this one out first try. Couldn't find any path through the thicket for the longest time.