Subject: Hop, a new HWM in 12-sums, and 4x8
Date: Fri Nov 30 10:19:23 2018
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:Hop has a new HWM in the 12 sums. He already had the all-time best HWM but now it is over 40 million! Impressive.
I also now know he and I share another habit. He clearly lost a 4x8 yesterday but wouldn't press "Give Up" until the new 12 sum listing so that he could have his HWM recorded. Makes sense to me.
But the weird thing is this from his Scores page:
11/30 2:09am 4x8 15608-5 Streak 0:10 Lost
Hop has already explained that he will take a screenshot of a tough game so that he can look at it without the clock ticking. But this clearly says that sometimes (perhaps with all 4x8's) he takes that screenshot VERY quickly.
Maybe someone should create a new nick and do this trick with 4x8's and then have an average time of :10 seconds with a streak of 12 or something cool like that.
James
Date: Fri Nov 30 11:18:25 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Hmmmmmm……….
Date: Sat Dec 1 03:14:48 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:I guess I just don't get the fascination with fast times, unless one is playing a tournament.
I'm certainly not accusing you of "cheating", but it seems that IF someone was going to cheat (like we know who), that freezing a game to study it would be maybe a first step towards that slippery slope. (I'm just theorizing - I don't know how "the black arts" are actually practiced, other than as revealed by those who have explained what they do.)
So......just out of curiosity..........why instantly pause a new game, study it, and conclude it's unwinnable without (presumably) making a move? I can imagine that with maybe a 13x0, or another zero-sum, but with a 4x8?.........well that seems to indicate a more powerful brainbone than I can really imagine (which is almost a self-answering question, I guess).
We know this site is occupied by ALL sorts of quirky people (a good thing!) -- that methodology just has me scratching said brainbone, that's all.
Date: Sat Dec 1 06:00:57 2018
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:"But this clearly says that sometimes (perhaps with all 4x8's) he takes that screenshot VERY quickly. "
If one is closely following my stats, he should have known that some of my 4x8 games took more than 10 minutes and sometimes less than 2 minutes, hence 4:15 average time.
I was hopeless for that game and didn't want to lose time.
Date: Sat Dec 1 09:23:31 2018
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:But how did you know it was hopeless so quickly? That's the interesting part to me.
James
Date: Sat Dec 1 11:23:18 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Right. I virtually never play that variant, so I just did one to make sure I knew what I was talking about..... I lost my streak of 2 (from who knows how long ago) with a game that was 0/21. I spent 4:25 on it. It didn't look all that promising, but no way in heck could I have determined it wasn't a winnable game without fiddling with it some. (In fact, I had genuine hope for a bit.) There *may* be 4x8-5s that are just completely obvious are unwinnable, but if one is trying to accumulate a streak like Hopi surely is, then I'm just not sure how one can determine that, and give up so 'quickly' without making some moves.
Date: Sat Dec 1 14:47:40 2018
User: joeygray
Message:The best way to save time when the game is obviously unwinnable is... to hit the give up button quick.
To hit a screen save for non-timed study, even when you are 'almost sure' the game is unwinnable... is lying to yourself. Sorry, I don't know any softer way to put it.
Date: Sat Dec 1 15:01:39 2018
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:It also is clear that my suggested plan above wouldn't get a :10 second average. That comes when you lose. But it would take longer than that (for me anyway) to win a 4x8 even if I knew every move I was going to do. And 4x8's have so many possible moves that I can't imagine coming up with the entire plan before making an actual move.
I would imagine I could do this...start a game, take a screenshot and save the game. Then I could stare at the stupid thing for a while until I had a pretty good set of moves. Then I would start the game again and make that set of moves. When I was done, then I'd save it again. And stare at the next situation. Etc.
Even with the most efficient method, I'll bet I couldn't get my average under a minute. Of course, all my :10 second losses would bring the average down.
As for Hop, I assume he saved it immediately, then spent some time looking at it. He determined it was unwinnable, not necessarily in a short time, and then started it again only to give up. That I could do in ten seconds.
But as he points out, he doesn't always do that as his average is over four minutes (mine is 12:57 just as a comparison). It was this game he saved immediately. I'm just curious as to why.
But I also want to reiterate the original point of this thread. Hop, right before losing the 4x8 streak, got over 40 million in the 12 sum competition. That is worth celebrating, no matter the time involved.
I had just (finally) passed CubicSprock to move into second place all time. Since then I have lost my 12x0 streak, my 10x2 streak, and probably my 4x8. I say that about the last one because I have timed out and have to play one. And I always think I'm going to lose whenever I play one. Before i even press PLAY.
James
Date: Sat Dec 1 19:14:36 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:Ok, I just played that game (4x8 15608-5). It's now 0/3, but it kinda looked promising, as far as 4x8s go. I just don't think it reasonable to believe that a player, even if he paused that game and "studied" it, could determine it was unwinnable without making an attempt, no matter the thinking prowess. I now seriously wonder what Occam would say about this.....
Hop's 40 million is absolutely worth celebrating - IF it's for real. There, I said it. I obviously don't know the real story, but I know the Razor.
I'm NOT accusing; just wondering. The "hmmmm........." is now louder.
Date: Sun Dec 2 04:12:59 2018
User: TitanicTony
Message:Hey, TN, you can "hmmmm........." for as long, and as loud, as you like.
Hop's 40 million is absolutely worth celebrating -- no matter what, IMO!!
AND, congratulations to James for his new personal best HWM, of 27,379,300!!
Btw, in my English, "hmmmm........." is an accusation.
Btw2, maybe free@last could run it through his solver and let us know if it really is un-winnable (or anyone else who has one).
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