Subject: 12x0 - what do you do to increase your chances?

Date: Thu Dec 27 05:03:31 2018
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
I guess there are some ways to increase your chance. Mine is that when I play 8x4 sometimes I get a feeling that dealer is serving some easy deals. Then I switch to 12x0 and voila it works, well maybe not always but most of the times. Here's some evidence from my playlog: 12/27 4:36 am 8x4 20974-10 Streak 1:21 Won 12/27 4:34 am 12x0 23130-5 Streak 1:10 Won 12/27 4:32 am 12x0 8892-5 Streak 1:27 Won 12/27 4:31 am 8x4 1951-10 Streak 0:55 Won 12/27 4:30 am 12x0 15746-5 Streak 1:36 Won 12/27 4:28 am 8x4 1974-10 Streak 0:57 Won I would like to hear if you do something else... well if you don't want to keep it for yourselves of course.

Date: Thu Dec 27 16:03:30 2018
User: Kaos
Message:
My main superstition is too play an even number of games - and in particular sets of 6, 14, or 28. It never occurred to me to switch to one of the harder versions when Denny's server seems to be doling out easier deals. Maybe I should try that with 4x8.

Date: Thu Dec 27 16:08:26 2018
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:
But...is an easy 8x4 automatically an easy 12x0? Or are you ruining the gift of an easy 8x4? My irrational strategy is to play infrequently. If I win some thirty in a row, I stop playing 12x0's for a while and then only play one a day or less. Still...every time I press play on a 12x0 my first thought is...well...there goes that streak.

Date: Thu Dec 27 16:35:41 2018
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
The power of negative thinking?

Date: Fri Dec 28 02:09:10 2018
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
Well, I use this tactic for other variants as well (4x8, 5x7, 6x6, 11x1,...). Usually after 2 or 3 easy 8x4 games I get this feeling. I had seen a similar post where someone was talking about playing at near 00:00 hours to increase your chances. Nowadays I cannot be in front of the pc at those times but I recall playing a long streak of easy 8x4 games at the very beginning of the day.

Date: Fri Dec 28 05:59:10 2018
User: Goosey_Goosey_Gander
Message:
12x0 is my original variant. When I started playing freecell I played it with 4 nics (4 lines of the nursery rhyme) and just about nothing else. Now I play 33 variants. I think getting winnable 12x0's is purely luck of the draw. After getting an unwinnable and losing one and a good streak like I did a couple of days ago I play 5 a day until I have a good streak, 4th or 5th place and then only play if one more win will move up a place or every 14th day. To play nothing but 12x0 until high up the leaderboard would mean neglecting everything else.

Date: Fri Dec 28 12:06:25 2018
User: TNmountainman
Message:
james, I noticed you've sort of adopted my 12x0 strategy (of long ago), either by accident or purposefully. That being, after getting 'up there' in streak length, playing only a game or two periodically. I can't explain, of course, how that "works", but it seemed to for me when I got to 66. And I also remember getting to that point where you think each time you hit "play", you're more than due for an unwinnable game. I know I've posted 2 or 3 times about that (seemingly irrational) strategy. But back when I did that, I didn't fully realize how difficult/unlikely it was to get that many winnable ones in a row. (As has been discussed before.) Back when I used to play 13x0, that seemed to (sometimes) work , too.

Date: Thu Jan 31 13:13:41 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Looks like you got an easy one for #60, james.

Date: Thu Jan 31 13:37:51 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:
They are all easy when they are winnable! ;) But yeah, I only panicked for a short time on that one. "Oh no! I lost my streak...wait...I can clear that column...and that one...oh...thank goodness." At least you have company now. You are less of an outlier. (This is too obvious to respond, Peanut Gallery.) James

Date: Thu Jan 31 14:14:33 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Not *all* climate 10 games are winnable *and* easy. There are maybe ~100 that have 10 or more plays with <10% winning percentage. A large chunk of those have more than 30 plays. Also...….a good chunk of those <10% are also <5%. As an aside...…...there are many who will be 'disappointed' to learn I'm not so much of an outlier. ;)

Date: Thu Jan 31 14:24:10 2019
User: joeygray
Message:
I just played one. (After the chanting, of course, didn't want to waste it.) When I opened my eyes there were only two moveable cards on the top row, both of them red 5's. The leftmost one obviously led nowhere. Fortunately the right one was atop a clearable column, but I still had a ways to go before clearing a second column. It's only after that, JBL, that I figure they're easy. Course it's true it's hard to go wrong when there's only one way to go. Too nerve-wracking. Think I'll calm down a couple weeks.

Date: Thu Jan 31 14:49:06 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Ok......in the spirit of conviviality...…….I just played one, too. Thought at first it was a big mistake, with ALL FOUR kings staring me in the face. But I found a (the?) way. But not easy at all. "Nerve-wracking" - and I'm currently "only" in climate 8. (But now 1/1.)

Date: Thu Jan 31 17:03:45 2019
User: jamesblackburn-lynch
Message:
Well, I was just being glib. Of course some of them are hard. But I do think 12x0's are always "easy" compared to 4x8's say. That's just because the number of options for possible solution is so much smaller. I can prove to myself a 12x0 is unwinnable. I can't imagine ever doing that with a 4x8. Both of your comments are reflective of what I mean. Joey had so few options he (probably quickly) found the only way out. Same for TN. Were there other ways? Possibly, but I suspect, doubtful. TN commented on another thread that 8x4's are so easy they are dull. But, for me, my average time is a reasonable measure of "easiness." Takes me way longer in 8x4 because of the increased number of options. James

Date: Thu Jan 31 17:39:47 2019
User: free@last
Message:
To avoid the hard ones I keep the little blue pills far away from the computer.

Date: Fri Feb 1 10:24:33 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:
To be more precise...………………...I should not have said that 8x4s are (all) "easy"; they're just boring because one 'should' win over 99% of them with reasonable care. As I've stated multiple times in the past, I MUCH prefer variants with a winning percentage of, say, 70-95%. I just don't "get", frankly, someone playing thousands and thousands (or even hundreds and hundreds - no offense intended, of course) of games and winning almost all of them. huffy, for an extreme example, is obviously a very strong player, but not in my wildest dreams would I want to play as he does. And yes, many times other strong players have commented that they don't like the 11x0s or 12x0s because the "decision tree" is so shallow. Certainly that's mostly true, with a smattering of exceptions. But maybe that's at least one reason I like them: the crux of the matter seems 'distilled' into a smaller box, and success or failure is more "concentrated". A stout 12x0 may have, let's say, at most (not completely true of course) 2 or 3 decision points upon which success may hinge. A truly stout 8x4 could conceivably have double that. The middle ground is occupied by things like the 9x2, 10x1, and 8x3, for examples. For a long time, 9x2 was my favorite, and it's still a very good one. It really does sort of split the difference between, say, 8x4 and 12x0, for the obvious reason(s). I think that one's choice in this matter is quite reflective of their personality. When I try to maintain a streak of 8x4, for example, I simply can't/don't want to keep up the concentration necessary to keep my guard up for hundreds of games in a row. When you KNOW the pathway is there, it's somehow more boring to me because it's just a matter of concentration. Which is another reason I don't like winnables. I'd much rather tackle a 10x1, not knowing if it's beatable or not, and challenge myself to find the (possibly) unique solution. As ix has said, there's nothing more satisfying in freecell than being the first winner in some game to make it 1/48, or something like that. That may be an exaggeration, as I get just about as much satisfaction beating an 8x2 to make it 3/57. So...……..to summarize...…….I'd say in the very, very vast majority of 8x4s there are multiple pathways - maybe even dozens - and maybe even in climate 10 ones. How many times have all of us made a 'mistake' in an 8x4, thinking we may have blown it, only to manage to recover by discovering another way out? That may be "interesting" to some, but to me it makes the task at hand "easier". That 12x0 I played yesterday was quite tricky. There is no way I could envision the full game out to the solution, or even close. And even when I saw a/the pathway to clear a column, the job was FAR from finished. There were multiple *fatal* pitfalls there. Somehow to me that's more "exciting", or as joey put it yesterday, "nerve-wracking".

Date: Sun Mar 3 11:40:41 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Just ran into one of those curiously difficult 12x0s, but beat it: 21837-5. Now 4/66. Which is 6%.

Date: Sun Mar 3 12:36:07 2019
User: joeygray
Message:
I am positive my next loss in 12x0 will be to an unwinnable. I wouldn't say this for the narrows like 5x6 or 4x8, but I am totally confident that I can see down any 12x0 far enough to either the sure win or the impossibility thereof. All that remains is the determination not to make moves before you see it and to doublecheck until you are sure. With a long 12x0 streak going, I'll have that! :)

Date: Sun Mar 3 22:57:21 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
Dang back after a ten-day hiatus and immediately get an unwinnable 12-0 deal. 😖

Date: Sun Mar 3 23:22:28 2019
User: redberet
Message:
If I have a reasonable streak going I will usually look at the daily results first. just to see if most players are having a good day or a bad day. if it's a bad day and the minefield hasn't been cleared, I try to resist the temptation of hitting play. playing a 12x0 or 13x0 sometimes makes playing 11x1 easier because I usually forget about that free cell. I like streaks more but I also like to do a 12-sum up or down before I get to that so I don't stick in tunnel vision mode. So far my strategy hasn't helped me a lick but in the right hands who knows?

Date: Thu Mar 28 17:03:51 2019
User: Kaos
Message:
So, besides using voodoo techniques to ensure winnable 12x0 deals, what other techniques do people use to get those large totals? As a second-tier streaker at best, I'm always drawn to running up larger totals in 8x4, 9x3, and 10x2 but it seems like one needs decent totals in 5x7, 6x6, and to a lesser extent 7x5, to crack the 10,000,000 total.

Date: Thu Mar 28 17:58:27 2019
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Not clear whether you're including the technique james and I 'found' to be in the voodoo category or not. If so, then yeah, it almost seems that way. If not, then I'm as clueless as you are. Being the speed demon you are, getting ix's cash waved in your face, I suspect you may be constitutionally anti-disposed to that method. Not that you *couldn't* do it - just that the "patience cost" might be severe. On the other hand/deal........you may be able to find another, even better form of voodoo.

Date: Thu Mar 28 20:01:16 2019
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
If you only lose the unwinnable, you should eventually have a long streak.

Date: Fri Mar 29 05:12:51 2019
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
Exactly. As I posted before the average streaklen is 14.58 for 12x0 assuming you win every winnable game. I keep the record of my 12x0 streaks for sometime now. 22,24,10,16,19,8,52,13,5,39,21*,6,3,2,12,2,13,2,9,21,2,11,32,7,22,13,33,0,7,5,20,1,9,8,22,2,11,0,5,17,20,7,10,22,17,22,11*,4,0,29*,17,31,3,26,24 * shows those steaks ended by losing a winnable game. The average for the above data is 13.98 So when your streaks last to short (0,1,2,3 etc.) don't be discouraged. That means you are in for the ones above average (14.58). Just make sure you don't lose the winnable ones.