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Subject: Baseball
Date: Wed Nov 3 19:58:08 2021
User: mrbuck
Message:
No baseball until...
Link: that is if there is a labor agreement
User: mrbuck
Message:
No baseball until...
Link: that is if there is a labor agreement
Date: Wed Apr 13 03:40:18 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
So like, this evening, the Milwaukee Brewers take a 5-4 lead into the ninth inning versus the Orioles, in Baltimore...and, of course, Josh Hader comes in to close the deal, and who does he face leading off? Cedric Mullins! Classic right? One of the very best relievers versus last year's AL Silver Slugger, and to top it off it's a lefty-lefty match-up, right? And what happens? Of course Mullins rips a double off a damn good 98 mph fastball at the very top of the zone...not at all in anybody's wheelhouse...(of course this is after Mullins hit an effing *GS* earlier to make it a competitive game at all)...so then do the Orioles try to sacrifice the man over, since two successful sacrifices equals two outs, but also a TIE GAME? No. They just strike out, strike out, walk, and pop out to lose...now, since they were at the top of the order the math made more sense (supposedly) to bat away...but no, let's be honest, the Orioles have one sole slugger: Mullins , of course...what I deem to have happened here regarding a win, is that since they needed TWO to win, they swung away, expecting a two run HR...but what if the score were tied? How on Earth does it make sense NOT to sacrifice? Then, or even here? This Orioles team ain't offensively no '82 Brewers' Harvey's Wallbangers...didn't they want to push it to extra innings to vie for the victory? Solid bunting skills would have almost ensured such... Shouldn't a leadoff double score like, 95% of the time? Or is the situation completely different since there was a one run deficit, not a tie? How would Casey Stengel or Earl Weaver have managed it? Or, a contemporary who sometimes goes old-school, like Terry Francona or Buck Showalter or even Mike Matheny? Does this exemplify old versus new baseball?
User: Klepp
Message:
So like, this evening, the Milwaukee Brewers take a 5-4 lead into the ninth inning versus the Orioles, in Baltimore...and, of course, Josh Hader comes in to close the deal, and who does he face leading off? Cedric Mullins! Classic right? One of the very best relievers versus last year's AL Silver Slugger, and to top it off it's a lefty-lefty match-up, right? And what happens? Of course Mullins rips a double off a damn good 98 mph fastball at the very top of the zone...not at all in anybody's wheelhouse...(of course this is after Mullins hit an effing *GS* earlier to make it a competitive game at all)...so then do the Orioles try to sacrifice the man over, since two successful sacrifices equals two outs, but also a TIE GAME? No. They just strike out, strike out, walk, and pop out to lose...now, since they were at the top of the order the math made more sense (supposedly) to bat away...but no, let's be honest, the Orioles have one sole slugger: Mullins , of course...what I deem to have happened here regarding a win, is that since they needed TWO to win, they swung away, expecting a two run HR...but what if the score were tied? How on Earth does it make sense NOT to sacrifice? Then, or even here? This Orioles team ain't offensively no '82 Brewers' Harvey's Wallbangers...didn't they want to push it to extra innings to vie for the victory? Solid bunting skills would have almost ensured such... Shouldn't a leadoff double score like, 95% of the time? Or is the situation completely different since there was a one run deficit, not a tie? How would Casey Stengel or Earl Weaver have managed it? Or, a contemporary who sometimes goes old-school, like Terry Francona or Buck Showalter or even Mike Matheny? Does this exemplify old versus new baseball?
Date: Wed Apr 13 04:33:53 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Not knowing the personnel much at all these days......................likely, yes. Back in the late '60s or possibly very early '70s, there was a superb SI article about how to play these situations - and much more. Many have been the times I wish I had that issue at hand. (I've likely got it still in storage.) Of course this was way before sabermetrics, or even computers. And I think it may have been before Elias, but I could easily be wrong about that. (Or maybe it was Elias that did the research.) But anyway..............'they' (whoever it was; not SI) did extremely thorough back-testing, etc. on such scenarios. Classic baseball theory says you sacrifice the guy over to third. But then you've only got one out left for a sac fly. Yet the chances for that are WAY higher than for a HR. I'm not sure what you're saying about bunting twice, tho. Are you saying the second bunt would be a squeeze? As I'm sure you know........that strategy is fraught with miscues, but if you've got good bunters, then much less so, of course. Ideally, whoever was up after Mullins was a great hit-and-run guy, but I suspect that's mostly a lost art. And you wouldn't do a hit-and-run with no outs, anyway. With one out, I think you do, depending on how fast Mullins might be. But with a guy on second with no outs, I think it would depend on the upcoming hitters what one should do. Duh. Don't know if the next two guys who struck out were trying to hit homers, or just trying to make contact. If the former, then that's just bad baseball. That article I refer to had statistics like percentage chance of scoring with a guy on second and no outs. I of course wouldn't remember that number, but it's not near 95%. In fact, as I recall................even the chance of scoring with a guy on *third* with no outs wasn't all that much higher than with the guy on second. But keep in mind this was back when pitchers had more say-so in how games were won. That article may even have been before the mound was lowered; don't know. [I do remember that they proved it was better to have your best hitter hit first, instead of 3rd or 4th. Having your slugger hit fourth was absolutely classic, undisputed truth for at least a couple of generations - with some exceptions, I'm sure.] Ok, enough theoretically yammering. This is the stuff that makes baseball interesting. And again (as I decried in another thread), the DH loses all this kind of nuance.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Not knowing the personnel much at all these days......................likely, yes. Back in the late '60s or possibly very early '70s, there was a superb SI article about how to play these situations - and much more. Many have been the times I wish I had that issue at hand. (I've likely got it still in storage.) Of course this was way before sabermetrics, or even computers. And I think it may have been before Elias, but I could easily be wrong about that. (Or maybe it was Elias that did the research.) But anyway..............'they' (whoever it was; not SI) did extremely thorough back-testing, etc. on such scenarios. Classic baseball theory says you sacrifice the guy over to third. But then you've only got one out left for a sac fly. Yet the chances for that are WAY higher than for a HR. I'm not sure what you're saying about bunting twice, tho. Are you saying the second bunt would be a squeeze? As I'm sure you know........that strategy is fraught with miscues, but if you've got good bunters, then much less so, of course. Ideally, whoever was up after Mullins was a great hit-and-run guy, but I suspect that's mostly a lost art. And you wouldn't do a hit-and-run with no outs, anyway. With one out, I think you do, depending on how fast Mullins might be. But with a guy on second with no outs, I think it would depend on the upcoming hitters what one should do. Duh. Don't know if the next two guys who struck out were trying to hit homers, or just trying to make contact. If the former, then that's just bad baseball. That article I refer to had statistics like percentage chance of scoring with a guy on second and no outs. I of course wouldn't remember that number, but it's not near 95%. In fact, as I recall................even the chance of scoring with a guy on *third* with no outs wasn't all that much higher than with the guy on second. But keep in mind this was back when pitchers had more say-so in how games were won. That article may even have been before the mound was lowered; don't know. [I do remember that they proved it was better to have your best hitter hit first, instead of 3rd or 4th. Having your slugger hit fourth was absolutely classic, undisputed truth for at least a couple of generations - with some exceptions, I'm sure.] Ok, enough theoretically yammering. This is the stuff that makes baseball interesting. And again (as I decried in another thread), the DH loses all this kind of nuance.
Date: Wed Apr 13 05:05:37 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Ok, this isn't the article I was thinking of, but it's a nice tribute to Elias, which apparently has been around much longer than I realized. This story makes me think it even more likely the article I was referring to used their data, but I can't quickly find it. I'll follow this one up with an academic article specifically addressing your question, I think.
Link: 1969 stats article featuring Elias
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Ok, this isn't the article I was thinking of, but it's a nice tribute to Elias, which apparently has been around much longer than I realized. This story makes me think it even more likely the article I was referring to used their data, but I can't quickly find it. I'll follow this one up with an academic article specifically addressing your question, I think.
Link: 1969 stats article featuring Elias
Date: Wed Apr 13 05:10:57 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
This is a pdf file, but it's pretty interesting. Gets math-y towards the end, but one can ferret out however much one wants fairly easily. Apparently there's a fair amount of literature out there with just this kind of stuff; too much to exhaustively search.
Link: "Hitting with Runners in Scoring Position"
User: TNmountainman
Message:
This is a pdf file, but it's pretty interesting. Gets math-y towards the end, but one can ferret out however much one wants fairly easily. Apparently there's a fair amount of literature out there with just this kind of stuff; too much to exhaustively search.
Link: "Hitting with Runners in Scoring Position"
Date: Wed Apr 13 07:23:49 2022
User: mrbuck
Message:
That strategy is considered by many who manage the game using a healthy dose of analytics to be somewhat outdated. I suspect that the Oriole's batters were following the new baseball strategies of Three True Outcomes. As a long time baseball fan I really hate the Three True Outcome style of baseball especially with the DH in both leagues now. It's like having nine Dave Kingmans (you remember Dave, right?) in your lineup. mrbuck
Link: sigh
User: mrbuck
Message:
That strategy is considered by many who manage the game using a healthy dose of analytics to be somewhat outdated. I suspect that the Oriole's batters were following the new baseball strategies of Three True Outcomes. As a long time baseball fan I really hate the Three True Outcome style of baseball especially with the DH in both leagues now. It's like having nine Dave Kingmans (you remember Dave, right?) in your lineup. mrbuck
Link: sigh
Date: Wed Apr 13 12:32:41 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
For those not in the know................"back in the day" mrbuck was a renowned hitter with the game on the line. Scouts and GMs still talk with reverence about his batting eye in late innings, perhaps exceeded only by his ability with the stick with 2 outs. I.e., he speaks with authority. And yeah, give me Frank Howard over Dave Kingman any ol' day - altho Kingman could run the bases surprisingly well, relatively-speaking. And he was probably a better fielder - which isn't saying a whole lot in comparison to Howard.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
For those not in the know................"back in the day" mrbuck was a renowned hitter with the game on the line. Scouts and GMs still talk with reverence about his batting eye in late innings, perhaps exceeded only by his ability with the stick with 2 outs. I.e., he speaks with authority. And yeah, give me Frank Howard over Dave Kingman any ol' day - altho Kingman could run the bases surprisingly well, relatively-speaking. And he was probably a better fielder - which isn't saying a whole lot in comparison to Howard.
Date: Wed Apr 13 17:31:48 2022
User: mrbuck
Message:
TN, You must be referencing my wiffle ball skills. I also had a nasty knuckleball. mrbuck
User: mrbuck
Message:
TN, You must be referencing my wiffle ball skills. I also had a nasty knuckleball. mrbuck
Date: Wed Apr 13 18:54:52 2022
User: _.!._
Message:
Kingman would crack homers and all youd see is that big fat smile from ear-t0-ear as he rounded the bases.
User: _.!._
Message:
Kingman would crack homers and all youd see is that big fat smile from ear-t0-ear as he rounded the bases.
Date: Wed Apr 13 19:06:42 2022
User: _.!._
Message:
Theres a coach or manager out there somewhere. Think hes on a college squad. He has the idea to end runaway OTs in MLB forever. All OT games would end in the 10th. Starting the 10th with a runner on 1st,I think thered be a coin toss and winner chooses whether to go on offense or defense. Then they play. Team on offense,of course,tries to score. If theyre successful,they win! If not other team wins. All kinds of variables would lead up to which choice the coin-toss winner opts for and game ends after 3 outs. No more than 4 at-bats possible and its over. Everybody (cept the losing side) goes home happy. Just think of what we will do with all that extra time!
User: _.!._
Message:
Theres a coach or manager out there somewhere. Think hes on a college squad. He has the idea to end runaway OTs in MLB forever. All OT games would end in the 10th. Starting the 10th with a runner on 1st,I think thered be a coin toss and winner chooses whether to go on offense or defense. Then they play. Team on offense,of course,tries to score. If theyre successful,they win! If not other team wins. All kinds of variables would lead up to which choice the coin-toss winner opts for and game ends after 3 outs. No more than 4 at-bats possible and its over. Everybody (cept the losing side) goes home happy. Just think of what we will do with all that extra time!
Date: Wed Apr 13 19:23:33 2022
User: _.!._
Message:
Scratch that Dave Kingman thing. I always confused him with another Dave. Too long ago. Cant remember the name anymore but he was always smiling.
User: _.!._
Message:
Scratch that Dave Kingman thing. I always confused him with another Dave. Too long ago. Cant remember the name anymore but he was always smiling.
Date: Wed Apr 13 19:29:48 2022
User: _.!._
Message:
Now I remember who it was-Dave Parker. Hes the smily one.
User: _.!._
Message:
Now I remember who it was-Dave Parker. Hes the smily one.
Date: Fri Apr 15 06:58:26 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
I'm curious to imagine a league where bunting skills are common instead of rare, and, in which case bunting skills possibly became *too* common (meaning: overly expected), the "Baltimore Chop" then is regularly resurrected, for runner advancement if not single... From the Glossary of Baseball terms: "A ball hit forcefully into the ground near home plate, producing a bounce high above the head of a fielder.[1] This gives the batter time to reach first base safely before the ball can be fielded. An important element of Baltimore Orioles coach John McGraw's "inside baseball" strategy, the technique was popularized during Major League Baseball's dead-ball era, during which baseball teams could not rely on the home run.[2] To give the maximum bounce to a Baltimore chop, Orioles groundskeeper Tom Murphy packed the dirt tightly around home plate, mixed it with hard clay and left the infield unwatered.[3] Speedy Orioles players like McGraw, Joe Kelley, Steve Brodie, and Willie Keeler most often practiced and perfected it. In modern baseball, the Baltimore chop is much less common, usually resulting when a batter accidentally swings over the ball. The result is sometimes more pronounced on those diamonds with artificial turf. The technique still sees use in softball.[4]" The defenders rush in to deftly field the bunt, but the hitter pulls back and chops it over their heads... Maybe still practiced regularly in Japanese baseball?
User: Klepp
Message:
I'm curious to imagine a league where bunting skills are common instead of rare, and, in which case bunting skills possibly became *too* common (meaning: overly expected), the "Baltimore Chop" then is regularly resurrected, for runner advancement if not single... From the Glossary of Baseball terms: "A ball hit forcefully into the ground near home plate, producing a bounce high above the head of a fielder.[1] This gives the batter time to reach first base safely before the ball can be fielded. An important element of Baltimore Orioles coach John McGraw's "inside baseball" strategy, the technique was popularized during Major League Baseball's dead-ball era, during which baseball teams could not rely on the home run.[2] To give the maximum bounce to a Baltimore chop, Orioles groundskeeper Tom Murphy packed the dirt tightly around home plate, mixed it with hard clay and left the infield unwatered.[3] Speedy Orioles players like McGraw, Joe Kelley, Steve Brodie, and Willie Keeler most often practiced and perfected it. In modern baseball, the Baltimore chop is much less common, usually resulting when a batter accidentally swings over the ball. The result is sometimes more pronounced on those diamonds with artificial turf. The technique still sees use in softball.[4]" The defenders rush in to deftly field the bunt, but the hitter pulls back and chops it over their heads... Maybe still practiced regularly in Japanese baseball?
Date: Fri Apr 15 07:27:00 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
From the article: "Or take slugging percentages. A guy slugs .800, wow. But what's that really mean, to slug .800? Not much...." Not yet appreciated enough in '69, even by many experts...with OPS commonly considered the game-changing offensive stat now...and way more nascent statistics than that with which I'm at all familiar... (I can't help but amusingly recall Jonah Hill's "Moneyball" character...(maybe I'll re-view))...
User: Klepp
Message:
From the article: "Or take slugging percentages. A guy slugs .800, wow. But what's that really mean, to slug .800? Not much...." Not yet appreciated enough in '69, even by many experts...with OPS commonly considered the game-changing offensive stat now...and way more nascent statistics than that with which I'm at all familiar... (I can't help but amusingly recall Jonah Hill's "Moneyball" character...(maybe I'll re-view))...
Date: Fri Apr 15 13:30:54 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Actually, girly-girls softball still has quite a bit of bunting and "small ball" aspects, especially at the high school level. I'm not saying I'm a fan of it (that version of baseball/softball), but that particular aspect is interesting and strategic. More famous than the Baltimore chop trick was the practice of the Dodgers' (and others, to a lesser extent) groundskeepers of making the foul lines tilt ever-so-slightly into the playing field, so that bunts along them would more often be fair than foul. And how often do we see someone steal home? I don't know the answer, but I think it's far, far more rare than it used to be.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Actually, girly-girls softball still has quite a bit of bunting and "small ball" aspects, especially at the high school level. I'm not saying I'm a fan of it (that version of baseball/softball), but that particular aspect is interesting and strategic. More famous than the Baltimore chop trick was the practice of the Dodgers' (and others, to a lesser extent) groundskeepers of making the foul lines tilt ever-so-slightly into the playing field, so that bunts along them would more often be fair than foul. And how often do we see someone steal home? I don't know the answer, but I think it's far, far more rare than it used to be.
Date: Fri Apr 15 13:38:28 2022
User: Kaos
Message:
When I saw this thread at the top of discussion, I’d have bet dollars 💵 to donuts 🍩 it would be about the Dodgers pulling CK after pitching 7 perfect innings. Wow, 6 outs away from a rare perfecto and yanked. Definitely something you would see pre moneyball.
User: Kaos
Message:
When I saw this thread at the top of discussion, I’d have bet dollars 💵 to donuts 🍩 it would be about the Dodgers pulling CK after pitching 7 perfect innings. Wow, 6 outs away from a rare perfecto and yanked. Definitely something you would see pre moneyball.
Date: Fri Apr 15 18:30:08 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
That'd normally (as if such a situation could ever be "normal") be a downright sacrilegious act and an abomination - unless he was hurting for some reason. Or there were serious extenuating circumstances involved, which there were. But still....
Link: Kershaw yanked with a perfect game in progress
User: TNmountainman
Message:
That'd normally (as if such a situation could ever be "normal") be a downright sacrilegious act and an abomination - unless he was hurting for some reason. Or there were serious extenuating circumstances involved, which there were. But still....
Link: Kershaw yanked with a perfect game in progress
Date: Sat Apr 16 09:10:39 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
Kershaw's veteran enough, sensible enough to make his own call in that situation. IMO.
User: Klepp
Message:
Kershaw's veteran enough, sensible enough to make his own call in that situation. IMO.
Date: Sat Apr 16 17:40:05 2022
User: mrbuck
Message:
Blame the lockout by the owners for Kershaw being yanked. He himself admitted he had yet to build up his arm strength to pitch more than 85 pitches. If he had taken part in a full spring training he could have been left in to get those six outs. That's straight from Kershaw's mouth. mrbuck
User: mrbuck
Message:
Blame the lockout by the owners for Kershaw being yanked. He himself admitted he had yet to build up his arm strength to pitch more than 85 pitches. If he had taken part in a full spring training he could have been left in to get those six outs. That's straight from Kershaw's mouth. mrbuck
Date: Sat Apr 16 18:29:25 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Yeah, that link I put above lays all that out in considerable detail. I like Klepp's comment, but it's clear he ceded that decision to the manager, Roberts - and is comfortable with it.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Yeah, that link I put above lays all that out in considerable detail. I like Klepp's comment, but it's clear he ceded that decision to the manager, Roberts - and is comfortable with it.
Date: Sat Apr 16 20:53:35 2022
User: Kaos
Message:
Hitters are in the same position vis-a-vis lack of Spring training. I’d say, why not see if you can get the last six outs with guile? Channel your inner Jamie Moyer.
User: Kaos
Message:
Hitters are in the same position vis-a-vis lack of Spring training. I’d say, why not see if you can get the last six outs with guile? Channel your inner Jamie Moyer.
Date: Mon Apr 18 03:49:31 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Your statement there, Kaos, has had me thinking.......... It *may* well be true, or maybe not. More likely, it's very individualistic. Baseball history is replete with stories of batters starting off ridiculously hot, with X number of home runs through April, or May, or whatever, and .450 BAs through the same period. And yes, those are the exceptions. My feeling is that hitters don't have the same new 'learning curve' starting the season that pitchers do. But of course so much depends on what they did in the off-season. But that aside.............I think hitting is closer to the "riding a bicycle" analogy than is pitching. And yes, hitters can sometimes get "in the zone" for a while, but I'm not talking about those cases. Pitchers don't want to go all out in the off-season, because arm fatigue is real, not to mention the threat of getting hurt by various means while pitching. Hitting is (generally) much less prone to injury. Batters can take BP all winter - and generally do. There's surely all the nuances associated with hitting this guy's stuff, or that guy's heat, but I just think it's easier to come out of the winter with a hot bat than with a solid strong arm. (And all this is concerning the shortened Spring Training.) A pitcher doesn't want to throw 50+ hard innings in Spring Training, which would take a chunk out of their yearly ratio, using today's short leashes, so they're not in high gear yet. Hitters should be - further not counting cold weather issues, which probably/definitely impact hitters slightly more. Just my thoughts; interested to hear others'.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Your statement there, Kaos, has had me thinking.......... It *may* well be true, or maybe not. More likely, it's very individualistic. Baseball history is replete with stories of batters starting off ridiculously hot, with X number of home runs through April, or May, or whatever, and .450 BAs through the same period. And yes, those are the exceptions. My feeling is that hitters don't have the same new 'learning curve' starting the season that pitchers do. But of course so much depends on what they did in the off-season. But that aside.............I think hitting is closer to the "riding a bicycle" analogy than is pitching. And yes, hitters can sometimes get "in the zone" for a while, but I'm not talking about those cases. Pitchers don't want to go all out in the off-season, because arm fatigue is real, not to mention the threat of getting hurt by various means while pitching. Hitting is (generally) much less prone to injury. Batters can take BP all winter - and generally do. There's surely all the nuances associated with hitting this guy's stuff, or that guy's heat, but I just think it's easier to come out of the winter with a hot bat than with a solid strong arm. (And all this is concerning the shortened Spring Training.) A pitcher doesn't want to throw 50+ hard innings in Spring Training, which would take a chunk out of their yearly ratio, using today's short leashes, so they're not in high gear yet. Hitters should be - further not counting cold weather issues, which probably/definitely impact hitters slightly more. Just my thoughts; interested to hear others'.
Date: Mon Apr 18 06:46:40 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
I like listening to John Smoltz doing color commentary as "grizzled old veteran"--his dislike of some sabre-metrics, today's short pitching leashes (wimpy in his opinion), and such... But re: Dodgers' groundskeepers futzing with the foul line's pitch, I didn't see Maury Wills play, but he had skills such groundskeeping would aid and abet, if I recall...
Link: Maury Wills
User: Klepp
Message:
I like listening to John Smoltz doing color commentary as "grizzled old veteran"--his dislike of some sabre-metrics, today's short pitching leashes (wimpy in his opinion), and such... But re: Dodgers' groundskeepers futzing with the foul line's pitch, I didn't see Maury Wills play, but he had skills such groundskeeping would aid and abet, if I recall...
Link: Maury Wills
Date: Mon Apr 18 13:36:19 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Yes, he sure took advantage of that. The White Sox started it, too, with Aparicio, etc., as they were mostly a small-ball team. Maybe the Cardinals a bit, too?? (Don't quote me on that one.) But I think the Dodgers were the most noted and known practitioners of it. But that's only from memory. Wills had a good glove, too.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Yes, he sure took advantage of that. The White Sox started it, too, with Aparicio, etc., as they were mostly a small-ball team. Maybe the Cardinals a bit, too?? (Don't quote me on that one.) But I think the Dodgers were the most noted and known practitioners of it. But that's only from memory. Wills had a good glove, too.
Date: Tue Apr 19 02:38:26 2022
User: Kaos
Message:
It would be hard to imagine that the sabermetric gurus don’t have some numbers to back up this decision. (Although it’s hard to imagine there are enough cases where someone ran a true scientific experiment changing only one variable to make it a high-confidence decision). And, it’s just not fan-friendly. It’s like the NBA when you buy tickets for a game to see Stephen Curry (or fill in your favorite player)!but then you find out GS is resting him because it’s the second game of a back-to-back. Evidence says it’s the right thing to do but it still sucks from the fan’s perspective. The next thing to watch: will the baseball gods thwart the Dodgers at the end of the season because they threw away the chance at a perfecto? Seems like a chance given what happened to the cheating ‘Stros a few years ago
User: Kaos
Message:
It would be hard to imagine that the sabermetric gurus don’t have some numbers to back up this decision. (Although it’s hard to imagine there are enough cases where someone ran a true scientific experiment changing only one variable to make it a high-confidence decision). And, it’s just not fan-friendly. It’s like the NBA when you buy tickets for a game to see Stephen Curry (or fill in your favorite player)!but then you find out GS is resting him because it’s the second game of a back-to-back. Evidence says it’s the right thing to do but it still sucks from the fan’s perspective. The next thing to watch: will the baseball gods thwart the Dodgers at the end of the season because they threw away the chance at a perfecto? Seems like a chance given what happened to the cheating ‘Stros a few years ago
Date: Tue Apr 19 04:13:29 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
As to fan disgruntlement.......................the last few days, I've been in a strange mood to watch a little baseball - something I don't do much of these days until the playoffs. (Sorry, the strike and steroids ruined it for me to a large extent.) But anyway..........the first night I found racing (with vehicles, not people), bowling, soccer, one NHL playoff, one NBA playoff game, and maybe even something else. But no baseball. Second night - same thing. Third night (last night?) there was a baseball game on both ESPN and The Deuce. Same game - one of them with somewhat entertaining chatter. WTBS and WGN no longer carry Braves and Cubs, and apparently haven't for a while. So in talking to a friend much more up on those things than I........it appears that most teams have their own deal with another provider, like Bally (and I had no idea they even did sports broadcasting until this past basketball season) or Fox Sports - or a separate deal with a provider on their own. And maybe there's also a separate thing called "Major League Network"(?). The whole point of all that is that it seems now baseball has been taken away from the average Joe fan. I don't wanna pay for "pay tv", so I don't plan on springing for some package that would include those things. I just have the next tier up from the bottom called "basic". And this situation fits with what I hear ticket prices have risen to at baseball parks. The average person just can't follow baseball in the same ways that we all used to. Everybody bitches, and rightly so, about how baseball is losing popularity. But by golly I can now see why it's as bad as it is. "They've" just priced most people out of seeing it regularly. Very sad. And yes, those kids are STILL on my lawn!
User: TNmountainman
Message:
As to fan disgruntlement.......................the last few days, I've been in a strange mood to watch a little baseball - something I don't do much of these days until the playoffs. (Sorry, the strike and steroids ruined it for me to a large extent.) But anyway..........the first night I found racing (with vehicles, not people), bowling, soccer, one NHL playoff, one NBA playoff game, and maybe even something else. But no baseball. Second night - same thing. Third night (last night?) there was a baseball game on both ESPN and The Deuce. Same game - one of them with somewhat entertaining chatter. WTBS and WGN no longer carry Braves and Cubs, and apparently haven't for a while. So in talking to a friend much more up on those things than I........it appears that most teams have their own deal with another provider, like Bally (and I had no idea they even did sports broadcasting until this past basketball season) or Fox Sports - or a separate deal with a provider on their own. And maybe there's also a separate thing called "Major League Network"(?). The whole point of all that is that it seems now baseball has been taken away from the average Joe fan. I don't wanna pay for "pay tv", so I don't plan on springing for some package that would include those things. I just have the next tier up from the bottom called "basic". And this situation fits with what I hear ticket prices have risen to at baseball parks. The average person just can't follow baseball in the same ways that we all used to. Everybody bitches, and rightly so, about how baseball is losing popularity. But by golly I can now see why it's as bad as it is. "They've" just priced most people out of seeing it regularly. Very sad. And yes, those kids are STILL on my lawn!
Date: Tue Apr 19 07:43:48 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
I greatly enjoy lying back, closing my eyes, and listening to the broadcast over the radio...Uecker doing Brewers and Pat Hughes doing the rival Cubs (easy reception with me residing near WI/IL border)...though I can't seem to tune in the White Sox anymore, missing Ed Farmer's broadcasts, what clever, deadpan humor that man had...(relief pitcher for the Brewers and Rangers in the early 80's I believe, ChiSox having been his hometown team as a boy, *RIP Ed Farmer*...
User: Klepp
Message:
I greatly enjoy lying back, closing my eyes, and listening to the broadcast over the radio...Uecker doing Brewers and Pat Hughes doing the rival Cubs (easy reception with me residing near WI/IL border)...though I can't seem to tune in the White Sox anymore, missing Ed Farmer's broadcasts, what clever, deadpan humor that man had...(relief pitcher for the Brewers and Rangers in the early 80's I believe, ChiSox having been his hometown team as a boy, *RIP Ed Farmer*...
Date: Tue Apr 19 14:14:28 2022
User: _.!._
Message:
Interleague play got me off that baseball bandwagon. Nothing was more magic than watching a world series pitting two teams against one another for the first time ever...or,maybe,the 10th time. Interleague sells big time. Therefore it is here to stay.
User: _.!._
Message:
Interleague play got me off that baseball bandwagon. Nothing was more magic than watching a world series pitting two teams against one another for the first time ever...or,maybe,the 10th time. Interleague sells big time. Therefore it is here to stay.
Date: Tue Apr 19 14:32:41 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Well, maybe the next generation of baseball fans won't be so entrenched in 1965. In the meantime, here's a legendary incident from Fenway Park. Truly legendary. The link below gives the entire broadcast, but this video is crystal clear: http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=33750478 And here's the back story: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33734026/fenway-pizza-chucker
Link: The great pizza incident
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Well, maybe the next generation of baseball fans won't be so entrenched in 1965. In the meantime, here's a legendary incident from Fenway Park. Truly legendary. The link below gives the entire broadcast, but this video is crystal clear: http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=33750478 And here's the back story: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33734026/fenway-pizza-chucker
Link: The great pizza incident
Date: Tue Apr 19 14:48:37 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
How y'all feel about the rules changes? Universal DH? Miss the runner on 2nd in extra?
User: MrFixit
Message:
How y'all feel about the rules changes? Universal DH? Miss the runner on 2nd in extra?
Date: Tue Apr 19 16:42:56 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Why in the heck does the illustration have the guy throwing the pizza left-handed?!? Being all too familiar with things along that line in Beantown..........before I read the backstory I said to myself: "I'd bet anything that guy's Irish". Sure enough..... As to 1965........................one should ask the question..............was baseball better in 1965 than today? All things considered, I'd say "yes, definitely". Yes, it was probably good to lower the mound, but really........the money has taken it too far from a sport into entertainment. At it's core, yes, there's still a sport there - but it's heavily camouflaged and overlaid with the 'other stuff'. As to the DH............as discussed earlier in this thread ^^^, it's horrible. It's taken somewhere between 1/3 and as much as 1/2 of the in-game strategy away. People who really understand the game, and appreciate the nuances, all - or virtually all - know how so much has been lost. I actually didn't know they had taken away the runner-on-second-in-extra thing - but that was so wonky anyway that I don't think there was ever any consensus on that. (There may well have been, but I'm unaware of it.) I don't mind interleague play - but it should be rare and special - like 2-3 times a year series(es). And maybe every year the big rivalries play, like Yankees/Red Sox.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Why in the heck does the illustration have the guy throwing the pizza left-handed?!? Being all too familiar with things along that line in Beantown..........before I read the backstory I said to myself: "I'd bet anything that guy's Irish". Sure enough..... As to 1965........................one should ask the question..............was baseball better in 1965 than today? All things considered, I'd say "yes, definitely". Yes, it was probably good to lower the mound, but really........the money has taken it too far from a sport into entertainment. At it's core, yes, there's still a sport there - but it's heavily camouflaged and overlaid with the 'other stuff'. As to the DH............as discussed earlier in this thread ^^^, it's horrible. It's taken somewhere between 1/3 and as much as 1/2 of the in-game strategy away. People who really understand the game, and appreciate the nuances, all - or virtually all - know how so much has been lost. I actually didn't know they had taken away the runner-on-second-in-extra thing - but that was so wonky anyway that I don't think there was ever any consensus on that. (There may well have been, but I'm unaware of it.) I don't mind interleague play - but it should be rare and special - like 2-3 times a year series(es). And maybe every year the big rivalries play, like Yankees/Red Sox.
Date: Tue Apr 19 18:13:46 2022
User: _.!._
Message:
The Pizza Chucker vid was funny. No overgrown children should be allowed outside but once this brat tossed it,a laugh-fest broke out in the announcers booth. Those announcers were truly funny! Thanks for that one BuzzClik.
User: _.!._
Message:
The Pizza Chucker vid was funny. No overgrown children should be allowed outside but once this brat tossed it,a laugh-fest broke out in the announcers booth. Those announcers were truly funny! Thanks for that one BuzzClik.
Date: Tue Apr 19 18:26:08 2022
User: _.!._
Message:
That extra-inning runner-at-second things still here. Saw one last week. Tampa Bay beat Oakland in 10. Think it was 9-8.
User: _.!._
Message:
That extra-inning runner-at-second things still here. Saw one last week. Tampa Bay beat Oakland in 10. Think it was 9-8.
Date: Tue Apr 19 20:18:12 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Yeah, free runner was gonna go away but I guess players liked it.
User: MrFixit
Message:
Yeah, free runner was gonna go away but I guess players liked it.
Date: Tue Apr 19 20:19:19 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
I thought it was gone but then I was watching the Mets go into extra innings and I'll be durned there was that free runner.
User: MrFixit
Message:
I thought it was gone but then I was watching the Mets go into extra innings and I'll be durned there was that free runner.
Date: Tue Apr 19 21:56:47 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
I am willing to give a raspberry to MLB for certain changes, but tweaks to the rules is not on my list. In my opinion, the biggest abomination occurred in the 2017 post season when MLB decided to sneak in balls with lower seams. Fast balls didn't move, curve ball didn't break, and sliders didn't slide. The Dodgers (and the baseball universe) blame their demise on the Astros pounding on garbage cans to signal pitches, but rewind to Game 5 and tell me who had the advantage. Kershaw vs Keuchel, and both got chased because they couldn't get anybody out. Keuchel out in the fourth, Kershaw in the fifth. Five hours, 25 runs, 10 innings, 14 pitchers, 28 hits. I was in Minute Maid that night, behind the plate with a great view to watch pitchers getting shelled because of the lack of movement in the ball. MLB was eternally grateful to the Astros for their silly trick because it took the heat off them. And speaking of stealing signs: the new electronic gizmos being worn by the battery isn't going to prevent stealing signs .... signals. Clown show. I am guessing TN and others could design a receiver to intercept those signals in ten minutes. No, I don't reminisce for 1965. Other than sitting in Wrigley once or twice per summer, I was unable to watch my Cubbies until WGN went superstation in 1978. TBS preceded them by 2 years giving the world the Braves. Prior to that, it was the Game (singular) of the Week. MLB is trying to get a decent market again and make the game as appealing to as broad an audience as the NBA and NFL. That requires quicker games, more action, more hitting, blah blah blah. Do I like it? Not much, but watching some baseball is better than no baseball. I was watching Korean baseball at 5 am during the Covid baseball shutdown.
User: BuzzClik
Message:
I am willing to give a raspberry to MLB for certain changes, but tweaks to the rules is not on my list. In my opinion, the biggest abomination occurred in the 2017 post season when MLB decided to sneak in balls with lower seams. Fast balls didn't move, curve ball didn't break, and sliders didn't slide. The Dodgers (and the baseball universe) blame their demise on the Astros pounding on garbage cans to signal pitches, but rewind to Game 5 and tell me who had the advantage. Kershaw vs Keuchel, and both got chased because they couldn't get anybody out. Keuchel out in the fourth, Kershaw in the fifth. Five hours, 25 runs, 10 innings, 14 pitchers, 28 hits. I was in Minute Maid that night, behind the plate with a great view to watch pitchers getting shelled because of the lack of movement in the ball. MLB was eternally grateful to the Astros for their silly trick because it took the heat off them. And speaking of stealing signs: the new electronic gizmos being worn by the battery isn't going to prevent stealing signs .... signals. Clown show. I am guessing TN and others could design a receiver to intercept those signals in ten minutes. No, I don't reminisce for 1965. Other than sitting in Wrigley once or twice per summer, I was unable to watch my Cubbies until WGN went superstation in 1978. TBS preceded them by 2 years giving the world the Braves. Prior to that, it was the Game (singular) of the Week. MLB is trying to get a decent market again and make the game as appealing to as broad an audience as the NBA and NFL. That requires quicker games, more action, more hitting, blah blah blah. Do I like it? Not much, but watching some baseball is better than no baseball. I was watching Korean baseball at 5 am during the Covid baseball shutdown.
Date: Wed Apr 20 10:39:01 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
Yeah, it was pretty darn cool watching Baumgarner homer twice on opening day, and seeing Woodruff homer off Kershaw in the playoffs...baseball has to chase the dollar, and the DH wins out...I suspect I would have opposed its initial use, but I was a tad too young to realize...though I do recall George Scott and Larry Hisle getting a bit more use due to it...and it is sort of cool to see Pujols vie for 700HR, no DH no chance for him to do so...
User: Klepp
Message:
Yeah, it was pretty darn cool watching Baumgarner homer twice on opening day, and seeing Woodruff homer off Kershaw in the playoffs...baseball has to chase the dollar, and the DH wins out...I suspect I would have opposed its initial use, but I was a tad too young to realize...though I do recall George Scott and Larry Hisle getting a bit more use due to it...and it is sort of cool to see Pujols vie for 700HR, no DH no chance for him to do so...
Date: Wed Apr 20 11:12:26 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
I'm fine with DH. Yeah it's a strategy difference but for the fans no more watching some pitcher helplessly wave the bat. The "free runner" I think is fine. It's just a strategy difference in the extra innings and encourages "small ball." Altho this season "small ball" seems to be back and everyone is bunting and hitting for contact. Why and/or is it my imagination? On the "pitchers can't use foreign substances" I've only seen the umps checking 'em coming off the field. After Trevor said "hey everyone does it" I guess I figure it's a fine part of the batter/pitcher duel. What you guys think?
User: MrFixit
Message:
I'm fine with DH. Yeah it's a strategy difference but for the fans no more watching some pitcher helplessly wave the bat. The "free runner" I think is fine. It's just a strategy difference in the extra innings and encourages "small ball." Altho this season "small ball" seems to be back and everyone is bunting and hitting for contact. Why and/or is it my imagination? On the "pitchers can't use foreign substances" I've only seen the umps checking 'em coming off the field. After Trevor said "hey everyone does it" I guess I figure it's a fine part of the batter/pitcher duel. What you guys think?
Date: Wed Apr 20 14:53:17 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Heck, didn't Trevor just admit that he's a bit naughty?
User: MrFixit
Message:
Heck, didn't Trevor just admit that he's a bit naughty?
Date: Thu Apr 21 03:37:58 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
IMO.........the implementation of the DH is more than "a strategy difference" - it's a strategy loss. Like going from 8x3 to a 9x4? But I would agree that having a free runner placed at second in extra innings is "a strategy difference" - nothing is taken off the table.
User: TNmountainman
Message:
IMO.........the implementation of the DH is more than "a strategy difference" - it's a strategy loss. Like going from 8x3 to a 9x4? But I would agree that having a free runner placed at second in extra innings is "a strategy difference" - nothing is taken off the table.
Date: Thu Apr 21 11:10:48 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
The DH is simply another strategy. Pitchers that can hit might be put in the lineup, most likely as a pinch hitter. Much of the interesting strategy involving the requirement of a pitcher to hit already had been eroded by the eagerness of managers/management to leave the starters in for a very few innings. The leash is short if the pitcher struggles at all, but complete games are getting very rare, even if the pitcher has been excellent. It's a different game today, there is no doubt.
User: BuzzClik
Message:
The DH is simply another strategy. Pitchers that can hit might be put in the lineup, most likely as a pinch hitter. Much of the interesting strategy involving the requirement of a pitcher to hit already had been eroded by the eagerness of managers/management to leave the starters in for a very few innings. The leash is short if the pitcher struggles at all, but complete games are getting very rare, even if the pitcher has been excellent. It's a different game today, there is no doubt.
Date: Thu Apr 21 17:10:23 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
How do you feel about rules changes to try to speed up the pace of the game? Personally it's the pitching changes and mound visits I hate. Those seem to take a good chunk of time per game, especially when the managers only let the pitchers throw 20 pitches before needing to micro-manage.
User: MrFixit
Message:
How do you feel about rules changes to try to speed up the pace of the game? Personally it's the pitching changes and mound visits I hate. Those seem to take a good chunk of time per game, especially when the managers only let the pitchers throw 20 pitches before needing to micro-manage.
Date: Thu Apr 21 17:47:51 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
Cy Young's record 511 career wins is untouchable...in recent years Maddux maybe came closest at 360 or something...
User: Klepp
Message:
Cy Young's record 511 career wins is untouchable...in recent years Maddux maybe came closest at 360 or something...
Date: Thu Apr 21 17:50:10 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
Miggy at 2,999, I think...I hope he triples for 3000...(like Molitor?).
User: Klepp
Message:
Miggy at 2,999, I think...I hope he triples for 3000...(like Molitor?).
Date: Thu Apr 21 17:56:26 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
I remember him as a twenty-year old kid playing for the WS winning Marlins in 2003...best right handed bat in the league for a full decade or so...
Link: Miggy (.919 carrer OPS!!!)
User: Klepp
Message:
I remember him as a twenty-year old kid playing for the WS winning Marlins in 2003...best right handed bat in the league for a full decade or so...
Link: Miggy (.919 carrer OPS!!!)
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