Subject: Baseball
Date: Fri Oct 7 13:35:50 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:So this is to *replace* the even-more-ridiculous 1-game "round"? If so, then that would be an improvement - but we even more need to get back to the 154-game seasons - like God intended. đ§
Date: Fri Oct 7 15:23:41 2022
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:But, as a Mariners fan, what would you rather have:
1) A single game in Toronto - where you could set up with your best pitcher since you clinched your spot with 3 days to go,
2) Three straight games in Toronto. Then one day off before traveling again
Date: Fri Oct 7 15:55:26 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Well, I know..... No good answer; but the 1-game "playoff" just isn't it. The 1-game scenario does favor a team with maybe a single mound-stud too much. Not advocating your choice #2, either, tho. But if *had* to choose, that one.
If they just stopped the regular season at the end of Sept., this wouldn't be such an onerous problem.
Date: Fri Oct 7 16:15:42 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:And.....btw.......tho not a huge Seattle fan.........I agree with
Klepp's non-choices. Almost anybody but those same ol' same ol' teams. Spread the wealth around. Would be tickled to see
Seattle do it. Klepp also should pull for the "Pilots II", as his Pilots I came from there.
Too bad your city couldn't have won one while Junior was there.
Date: Fri Oct 7 17:09:27 2022
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:Interesting, the lads at 538 have a different take than many human writers with the Dodgers a bug favorite (and with 111 wins, why not) and the M's just 10th most likely to win it all. The M's have an 1522 Elo, actually 2-points lower than the Brew Crew who didn't make the post season. And, 1522 is just a bit above average. I'm thinking the 538 predictions might be better if it had less history - say the last 100 games of the season. I think I remember SI had the Mariners as their 5th choice, reflecting their mid season climb from below .500 and the acquisition of a stud pitcher at the trade deadline.
Link: FiveThirtyEight Elo ratings and predictions
Date: Sat Oct 8 20:27:17 2022
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:Woo Hoo. What a day to not have games on TV (at least for me). Cleveland wins 1-0 on a walk-off home run in the bottom of the 15th inning. Meanwhile, the Mâs come from 8-1 down in the 6th to sweep the Blue Jays with a 10-9 victory.
Date: Sun Oct 9 03:34:27 2022
User: Klepp
Message:Definitely enjoy Phillies' baseball: power sure, but also small ball: bunting, hitting behind the runner, etc....maybe they'd have a chance if their defense wasn't so below average...(rooting for good-guy ex-Brewer Jean Segura, too (one decent defender of theirs))...
Date: Sun Oct 9 21:33:41 2022
User: Klepp
Message:So like, the Showalters have been removed from the Musgrove's Christmas card mailing list?
Date: Sun Oct 9 22:33:23 2022
User: Punster
Message:Go Cleveland Guardians !! They haven't won the World Series since 1948 (as the Indians). But they have to beat the Yankees, next in the playoffs.
Date: Mon Oct 10 03:42:17 2022
User: Klepp
Message:Seeing the Yankees taken out in the Divisional Series, is now expected...six games...
Date: Sun Oct 16 01:58:19 2022
User: Klepp
Message:Nice to see joyfully raucous, exuberant, drenched, drunken Padre fan.
Date: Sun Oct 16 02:18:57 2022
User: Klepp
Message:The principal owner of the Padres *Peter Seidler* is the GRANDSON of Walter O'Malley? Oh, the beautiful irony...
Date: Tue Oct 18 01:01:27 2022
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:Even more ironic, the two worst teams in the NL playoffs are playing for the pennant. Not sue if thatâs ever happened before. They are a combined 36! games behind teams in the regular season who were ousted from the playoffs. Iâm guessing if youâd have bet on that youâd be a free man today.
Date: Tue Oct 18 01:22:27 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Although baseball isn't *exactly* the same as freecell.....................there is sort of a parallel in terms of surprises lurking out/in there. It's not shocking for most of us here to lose to a 32/40 game every once in a while, nor is it shocking to see someone beat a game to make it 1/23, or 3/109, or whatever. In the regular season.........a team that's 40-60 will beat a team that's 62-39 not all that rarely. Maybe even a 35-40% chance on any given day. So to do that 3 out of 5 times isn't that astonishing - to me at least. I would agree that leverages applied in the postseason would tend to favor the favorite further - but that falls apart with one bad pitching outing by a top-line pitcher, a couple of key errors, or a breakout 3-4 game with 4 RBIs by a rookie or journeyman outfielder. Happens all the time. The pivot points in baseball are more important and magnified, than in *most* basketball and football games, imo.
That said, it *is* ironic, I guess, but remember.........the two 'worst' teams in the NL playoffs were still in the top ten teams overall. They didn't really suck. And I can't disagree that someone betting that combo would have done very well.
Date: Tue Oct 18 03:52:31 2022
User: Klepp
Message:154-game regular season, best-of-5 Wild Card, best-of-7 Divisional, Championship, and World Series? Resulting in fewer upsets? Fairer that way? I think a debate could easily be made either way...(what I just postulated above seems good to me...though I'm sure lay-off time for non-Wild Card teams advantage/disadvantage could still be argued...
Date: Tue Oct 18 04:30:44 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Yeah, I believe their site has evolved as the games has gone on, but Nate Silvers' guys (linked by Dr. Bombay above) I think toted up that rest is better than rhythm. Some of the Padres players (at least, said otherwise). Hard to tease that out since we don't have controls. So much depends on pitching staffs/team.
As to the format........I've grown to like the underdog-on-the-road they used this year. You want to play at home? Then win more games. I would, like the NCAA (cough cough) in their (bowl game) wisdom (cough cough), be in favor of any team not playing .500+ ball just doesn't get in, regardless of the '27 Yankees being in their division. I don't think that actually happened yet, but it almost did, as I recall. In fact................it **did** happen in the strike-shortened split season, when they only counted the last part of the games to decide playoffs. AmIright? I ***think*** maybe the Royals(???) were under .500 for the whole season, but the games before the stoppage were excluded from selection criteria. Don't quote me on that, but something along those lines took place.
But heck, upsets are a HUGE part of the fun of it, just like March Madness. We don't want to do away with that aspect.
Date: Tue Oct 18 04:56:13 2022
User: Klepp
Message:As a Brewers fan, I'm acutely aware of the 82-80 regular season the Cardinals put up, before taking out the Tigers in the '06 Series...(I'm not arguing against your proposition, the mention of sub-.500 brings up painful memories...(on second glance, it was actually 83-78...
Link: 2006 Season Champs
Date: Tue Oct 18 05:11:15 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:See, just another example that "on any given day.......". Also, the Cards and Tigers seem to sort of have their own little universe when it comes to the Series. But don't ask me what I mean by that - it's nebulous.
Date: Thu Oct 20 01:15:55 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Speaking of O'Malley........(as Klepp was a few days ago)..........
I came across this a few weeks ago, and now decided it's interesting enough to post here. Quite long, but *chock full* of interesting baseball tidbits, esp. from the '50s. Not boring - esp. for those interested in baseball history. Milwaukee mentions, Klepp. Baltimore mentions, joey. Really the story of how O'Malley brought baseball to the West Coast.
("How time flies" factoid: It's now been longer since the Dodgers and Giants moved west, than the time since 1900 to that point.)
(Although the article doesn't mention this - for context........back at that time the PCL was almost thought of as the third major league. For many players, the salaries were actually slightly higher than the majors. Wasn't rare for players to turn down offers to go East - at least for a while. Not to mention.........would you rather be playing in CA or WA, or Cleveland and Baltimore - money not being lucrative enough to make one move?)
Link: O'Malley pulls the trigger to move West
Date: Thu Oct 20 01:31:36 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Relatedly............and this is what led me to the O'Malley article.........this piece details some of the quirks and oddities of playing in the Coliseum in those early years while ChĂĄvez Ravine was being built. See the aerial view near the top to see the field layout. Lots of other neat stories and pics elsewhere on the net for those interested in going deeper.
Link: Dodgers playing in the Coliseum after the move
Date: Thu Oct 20 07:37:25 2022
User: Klepp
Message:If I were a Brooklyn-born nonagenarian I'd still be rocking the "B" cap of Dodger blue, while staying up till 2 a.m. local to see my team play their Chavez home games.
Date: Fri Oct 21 06:51:31 2022
User: Klepp
Message:Cheating is uncool, but since the Yankees' pockets are so ridiculously deep, what's much difference? It's easier to watch home-grown Astros' talent (Pena, particularly) beat Yankees purchased talent (Bader, Donaldson, Stanton, Cole, et al...
Date: Fri Oct 21 07:00:48 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Yeah, that's about the story, so I reluctantly would be ok if the cheaters advance. But really, the Padres are the only team left that 'needs' some lovin'.
Date: Fri Oct 21 07:32:22 2022
User: Klepp
Message:Yeah, the Padres were the National League's addition in '69 (first year of divisional play) I think, while the Pilots were the AL's addition...being swept out of two Series solely ('84 and '98) in their entire 50+ year history gives one underdog status big-time...cool to see middle-aged Padre fans erupt in joy, they've waited half a lifetime (so far), as I've also done, and do...
...I recall rooting so hard for Tony Gwynn back in '98...
Date: Fri Oct 21 19:30:06 2022
User: Klepp
Message:We get to see Philly fan in his element (going ape sh*t).
Date: Sun Oct 23 17:51:33 2022
User: Klepp
Message:Ain't no thing for Harper to go 400ft. opposite field, cake for him.
Date: Sun Oct 23 18:16:32 2022
User: Klepp
Message:I'm down with old school baseball more than most, but if you're gonna bunt there (one out) like Grishham, you'd better be about as adept at bunting for a single as Paul Molitor was...
Link: His career bunt single stat must be here somewhere
Date: Sun Oct 23 18:24:07 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Yeah, if he had pulled that off, he would have been lauded as a genius. And yes, he was in a slump. But that just wasn't the time for that. Downside much bigger than the upside.
Date: Mon Oct 24 10:35:31 2022
User: Klepp
Message:It'll be an interesting Series, especially when Philly loses (average American can then enjoy media coverage of the riotous city's pissed off pyromaniacal fanatics).
Date: Mon Oct 24 10:46:04 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Maybe, but I now have very little interest: the cheaters vs. the Pete Rose coddlers? Not much to cheer for there - altho I guess the Phils have a slight nod since they haven't won it just a little bit. Altho their fans detract even from that slight nod. Ok, be that way - but don't wear it like a badge of honor or something.
Date: Mon Oct 24 10:47:40 2022
User: JackStraw
Message:Thought the bunt attempt was a cowardly thing.
You're saying " I can't do it . I'll leave it up to you."
You're throwing away one of the two outs left for you.
Seems the Padres were a little short in the pinch hitting dept.
when you have to let Grisham and Nola bat in that situation.
Date: Mon Oct 24 11:22:19 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:I considered the possibility that, with the weather conditions, he was asked to move the runners over, hoping for another WP. Remember.........not long before, they has actually gotten a run with two consecutive WPs. I think that's kinda unlikely, tho, and either way still a bad decision.
Date: Mon Oct 24 11:30:11 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:"Pete Rose coddlers"? What does that even mean? (I know what a coddler is, but I have no idea of its relevance to Philly and Rose.)
Date: Mon Oct 24 12:07:36 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:They allowed him to play there - just like IU and TTU were Bobby Knight coddlers. And thus forever tainted by that stain. Philly isn't quite such a severe case case; just in that direction.
And I actually *like* the city, in some ways. And yes, I admit to a small bit of hyperbole. đ§
Date: Mon Oct 24 14:15:37 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:(Most sports banter has a high content of hyperbole...)
So, you disliked Rose even before he confessed to betting on baseball. That was a club with many members.
Knight was totally obnoxious for most of his career. IU didn't dump him until he assaulted (pushed) a student who didn't address him with the proper deference. I have little use for either IU or TTU, but the Red Raiders were yuck long before Knight arrived.
Date: Mon Oct 24 20:00:29 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:That's correct (on Petey). Remember, he came from the Cincinnati Rednecks' Big Red Machine. Those were great baseball teams, but were redneck-ish - even before the Marge Schott era.
And it wasn't just him dragging down the Phillies. Dykstra; throwing batteries at some players; throwing snowballs at Santa Claus of all things; Jim Bunning; then more recently Curt Schilling. Opinions are split on their treatment of "Richie"/Dick (and that whole story) Allen, and all that very complicated noise. But I believe the Phils were the very last team to integrate. At least the last NL team. Lots of baggage there if you're interested in looking deeper. And we could go on. Certainly no major league team is without negative aspects, but imo the Phils have more than earned their bad boys image - moreso the fans maybe.......but several significant players, too.
And yes TTU was already yuck, but that hire just cemented their legacy forever. And actually..........altho I didn't say this earlier..........the whole state of Indiana has some degree of Bobby Knight stainage because (for the most part, for most of his tenure) they embraced his win-at-all-costs ways. They put up with his disgraceful, toxic persona because he won basketball games.
Date: Mon Oct 24 23:29:57 2022
User: joeygray
Message:Yeah, whatever. From a guy who hate(s)(d) the Orioles because they once had Earl Weaver as manager, 25 years after he last managed and 10 years after he was dead (and the last owner that hired him was also dead and buried). Kind of silly, huh. Would I hold a lifelong grudge against the Yankees because Steinbrenner kept hiring Billy Martin? I think not.
Date: Mon Oct 24 23:41:45 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:"I yam what I yam." I don't "hate" the Orioles. I didn't like Weaver - no - nor should any kind-hearted person. But their drought has now been long enough, as I've pointed out before. Penance has been paid. The Yankees will almost certainly never be off the baddies list - Steinbrenner being just one of the many reasons. Billy Martin himself would be another, altho a relatively tiny one. What's too bad is that they've (mostly) had what seem to be pretty good guys as players going way back.
Date: Tue Oct 25 08:21:09 2022
User: Klepp
Message:NYY on pace in early July to win 116 regular-season games...too bad too sad.
Date: Tue Oct 25 10:53:44 2022
User: JackStraw
Message:I think the Yankees may have been the last to integrate(with Elston Howard);
and Casey had a racist blast that came with him . (at least one famous one)
Still can't believe Grisham tried to bunt in that situation. Come to find out that Phillies pitcher is considered
one of the best fielding pitchers in baseball, if not the best. Of course Grisham was playing because Tatis was not.
On youtube you can find video of Mantle drag bunting and running to first in 3.2 seconds.
Date: Tue Oct 25 13:23:51 2022
User: Narrows
Message:Seriously, it isn't that hard to look up.
Link: See here
Date: Tue Oct 25 13:40:39 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Well, personally, I did look it up after my post, to confirm that the Phillies were the last in the NL. Just didn't feel compelled to elaborate, as that was only a small facet of my argument. But there is no doubt the Philly fans treated Jackie Robinson horribly when he came to town. And there was more where that came from.
Date: Tue Oct 25 15:09:39 2022
User: JackStraw
Message:As Randy Johnson said to former teammate Rex Hudler, when Hudler tried to bunt on him "swing the bat wuss."
Date: Tue Oct 25 15:20:39 2022
User: JackStraw
Message:Jackie wasn't treated that well by some of his own teammates.
Dixie Walker, who was perhaps the most popular Dodger on the team sent a letter to Branch Rickey
asking to be traded as he didn't want to be on the same team as Jackie.
Date: Fri Oct 28 17:19:13 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:The first in a series of 3(?) articles I'll post about Houston baseball. This one is just 'interesting', and 'sorta' a feel-good story. Long, but worthwhile, imo.
The next two will be historical.
Link: Mattress Mack
Post follow-up