Subject: Baseball

Date: Mon Jan 23 04:12:11 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
And I assume you know Rollie *did* make The Hall, on second ballot. Not sure whether his 'stache (which he still maintains, btw) was voted in separately or whether it was a package deal. And he chose to retire rather than shave it off to play for the oppressive Rednecks at the end of his career.

Link: Rollie discusses the game today

Date: Mon Jan 23 04:24:19 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Nobody wears 34 on the Brewers, though the rookies probably ask "Who was this Fingers dude?" Even young *relievers* might wonder... Three inning saves? What, was the rest of the staff injured?

Date: Mon Jan 23 04:38:49 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Saves were a relatively new concept back then; hadn't been fully weaponized. I don't even remember the term "closer" being used yet - but could've just been ig'nernt. And not positive, but think his number was retired by both Brewers and As - but likely not by the Padres. Not looking it up, but I sorta think that's right. Doubt any young relievers are clueless about him; the 'stache, the memorable name......

Date: Tue Jan 24 21:29:57 2023
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Scott Rolen was the only HOF inductee this year.

Date: Tue Jan 24 23:11:16 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
I'm kinda puzzled that Rolen outvoted Helton. 8 Gold Gloves helps, but still.........

Date: Wed Jan 25 05:49:30 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
I'm not sure if I'd have voted for any on the ballot...Helton deserves consideration certainly, but such thin air adds >50 points to one's OPS, though he's still way up there around .890...maybe his penultimate or ultimate ballot (not Veteran's vote, like Crimedog (worthy? IDK))...

Date: Wed Jan 25 06:35:53 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
I predict he gets in - but not the manner of voting. Helton hit over .300 TEN STRAIGHT SEASONS, but 'only' .287 on the road. And he had some Gold Gloves, too.

Date: Wed Jan 25 06:45:00 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
If one considers the bat to be a plus in Denver...then a GOLD GLOVE is that much more impressive (thin air, quicker ball, et cetera)...as if it were harder to field, like it's a minus (hindrance)...thus making Arenado's GOLD GLOVES even that much more impressive!

Date: Fri Jan 27 15:25:24 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
I post having not yet read; I suspect I'll have one or more opinions regarding such (considering--shamelessly admitting--extensive knowledge of Majors' history).

Link: Worst MLB Hall of Famers

Date: Fri Jan 27 15:33:40 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Forget it, I think I ran into spyware going further into it...only saw Luis Aparicio and George Kell...I have no argument for/against them...

Date: Fri Jan 27 16:11:15 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
This is a very cool pic. First HOF induction ceremony. Here's the names for those who might be confused by their post-career appearances: https://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=164144028373&category=50129&pm=1&ds=0&t=1674846547906&cspheader=1 Cy Young looks like he can't wait to get out of there. Connie Mack looks like wants to go fine somebody for swearing. Easy to confuse this pic with The Missouri Bankers' Association summer conference in Cape Girardeau.

Link: First HOF induction ceremony

Date: Fri Jan 27 18:25:22 2023
User: BuzzClik
Message:
The link below takes you to the entire article. I have read variations on other sports, like "The Worst Superbowl Winning QBs", with Joe Namath at the top of the list. It is easy to have an opinion, and backing it up with out-of-context statistics makes one look like a genius. In the linked article, they target mostly players from 80-100 years ago when the game was played with a different emphasis and statistics like WAR didn't exist. They toss in a few modern players (e.g., Lou Brock and Harold Baines) for balance. Some in the list are ridiculous, particularly Brock. The author's complaint is that Brock only had five stellar seasons. Those of us who watched Brock know better.

Link: The Worst MLB Hall of Famers

Date: Fri Jan 27 20:09:06 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Yeah, there's oodles of 'those' kinds of articles out there - some maybe with an agenda, but most just for discussion fodder for "the hot-stove league" (or more semi-currently "water cooler discussions"). Some are fun to read, and/or argue back and forth about, but as Buzz notes, "it's easy to have an opinion". I've actually even been known to have some. But............this (link) is not that. It's a list of the 58 first-ballot inductees; the ones without a whole lot of doubt (but yes, of course, even in this grouping there's been some). [Sidebar: Musial was the first to receive 300 votes, but still 23 chose not to vote for him. What!? Why?? How??]

Link: First-ballot HOF-ers

Date: Sun Feb 5 10:40:42 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
If I were playing all-time fantasy baseball, I'd take Satchel with the first pick, sure. (I do recall having a Minnie Minoso (remembrance-type) card as a kid--otherwise I don't know these dudes).

Link: 10 Oldest Players To Ever Play In MLB

Date: Sun Feb 5 10:42:21 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
I also recall Wilhelm being talked about a great deal...HOF reliever, I think.

Date: Sun Feb 5 10:51:48 2023
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Not sure how fantasy baseball would work with players who no longer play. Or breathe.

Date: Sun Feb 5 11:16:27 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Computers can do sh*t unimaginable years back, like beat Kasparov.

Date: Sun Feb 5 12:38:09 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Minoso was probably the greatest pinch-hitter of all time. Nobody *really* knew how old Satchel was - including himself.

Date: Sun Feb 5 21:27:38 2023
User: mrbuck
Message:
Buzz, Here's a starting point in your quest to discern "how fantasy baseball would work with players who no longer play. Or breathe." It's a game we played in the 70's called Sports Illustrated All Time All Star Baseball. The way information was broken down and assigned to player performance is like a lot of things, outdated. But I bet someone could take the format, use current, more relevant data, and come up with something similar. One quick note, we few players had agreed that there were some moves that although the data said to do those moves we knew that managers would never make those sort of silly moves. Good thing Joe Maddon hadn't come along to prove us right yet. mrbuck

Link: SI Baseball

Date: Sun Feb 5 23:19:31 2023
User: BuzzClik
Message:
mrb -- I was considering what Klepp said, and I thought of similar, outdated notions. For instance, way back when they decided to do imaginary matchups between old boxers. Different "experts" gave their opinions about who might be whom, and they created fake radio broadcasts of the fights. It was kinda dumb, but I listened to a couple. I think Marciano won the whole deal in the heavyweight division. A modernized version of the SI deal might be interesting. Put together fantasy drafts of retired and current position players and pitchers, and have a computer play it out. I'm not into sports games (i.e., Madden NFL) but I'm sure they could build the old timers into such a game.

Date: Mon Feb 6 00:43:40 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
And before the SI game ("back when I was a boy").............we had Baseball Strategy, Football Strategy, and Strat-o-Matic Baseball. Actually liked Football Strategy the best; thought it was the most realistic. Came in a tall cardboard can - which I still have in storage somewhere.

Date: Mon Feb 6 02:23:05 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
I'd want a rotation of Satchel Paige, Sandy Koufax, Walter Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, and Bob Feller...with relievers Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersly, and Grover Cleveland Alexander. And how about a batting order of: Ricky Henderson LF Ty Cobb CF Babe Ruth DH Lou Gehrig 1B Henry Aaron RF Mike Schmidt 3B Honus Wagner SS Johnny Bench C Nap Lajoie 2B ...I suppose Mike Trout OF and Yogi C/1B could come off the bench, with Willie Wilson and Tim Raines giving us speed, if needed late in the game... ...though I could envision a more defensive team, but the above dudes would beat almost any other, IMO.

Date: Mon Feb 6 02:29:32 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Lefties Koufax and Kershaw to offset the righties, yeah?

Date: Mon Feb 6 04:23:13 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Those 5 guys in the "rotation" would balk (sorry!) at only being allowed to pitch every 5 days. They would really prefer only 2, or at most, 3 days rest. Well..........Kershaw might be ok with it. "He wouldn't know no better." Ricky and his ego wouldn't cotton to Cobb trying to teach him how to hook slide whilst keeping his cleats in the air. 'Course with those guys batting behind you, wouldn't be much need for slidin'. Just a lot of trottin'.

Date: Mon Feb 6 12:05:43 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Early, very rough first draft...but how on Earth could I have forgotten Willie? BTW, no suspected dopers allowed (A-rod, Bonds, Clemens... With career >.400 OBP and >2000 SB at the top two, the boppers would very regularly be set up... And I think I'd want Casey Stengal and Billy Martin as bench coaches (the brains behind formal manager Connie Mack)...

Date: Mon Feb 6 13:37:39 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
The semifinal between USA and DR will more or less be the real finals, I expect... ...though I may be unclear regarding reseedings...but everybody knows who the two best teams are, or no?

Link: World Baseball Classic

Date: Mon Feb 6 13:40:44 2023
User: mrbuck
Message:
Klepp, I think I'd swap Mays for Cobb, move Ruth to the outfield and put Ted Williams in as the DH. I'd keep the rotation you have but make it a six man rotation by adding Bob Gibson and dropping Kershaw and add Bill Foster, the best lefty in the Negro Leagues. In the pen I agree with your choices of Rollie Fingers, Dennis Eckersly, and Grover Cleveland Alexander, I'm going to add Bullet Joe Rogan, Lefty Grove, and Mariano Rivera. Yogi and Bench make a great platoon tandem, but what about Josh Gibson? All time Negro Leagues WAR leader. I had to think this one through and I'll have to let Klepp keep Johnny Bench, but it really was a toss up. I'd want my bench players to be versatile so I'm going with Jackie, Cristóbal Torriente, Oscar Charleston, and to sneak another pitcher in, one who can play 1B and both corner outfield spots, Smokey Joe Williams. Because he did well with a lot of star players, like on this roster, I'm going with Earl Weaver as the manager. mrbuck

Date: Mon Feb 6 13:53:22 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Superb choices, mrbuck...(you've even mentioned a couple I further need to familiarize myself with... (I thought about picking Weaver, but maybe, as an old Brewers fan, I still have a bit of animosity for that short, confrontational SOB...though playing FOR him must have been great...Jim Palmer and Eddie Murray know (two more possible roster members...

Date: Mon Feb 6 13:54:14 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Gag. So much wrong with some of that. For starters...........you think those guys would play a game with a DH involved? Not hardly. Choosing both Martin and Casey is too Yankee-centric. Earl Weaver was a jerk. Bench was a redneck, so I Iike replacing him with Josh Gibson. And I'm certainly ok with dropping Kershaw for the 'other' Gibson. I almost suggested that earlier, but 'we' don't need many pitchers. The Big Train can go half the time all by his lonesome self. Satchel can do most of the rest, depending on how old he is in your scheme. Six-man rotation? Maybe if you have two teams - one for 'reg'lar' games; one for barnstormin'.

Date: Mon Feb 6 14:38:01 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
I suppose I should consider a four-man rotation, since I'm envisioning an old old-school "BEST OF NINE" WS... ...and oh yeah, Randy Johnson has to be somewhere on that pitching staff...

Date: Mon Feb 6 14:41:09 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Johnson over Ryan? I guess one could make a case, but......... Sounds like maybe the rosters are getting so large that this should be an NL-AL AS game/series.

Date: Mon Feb 6 14:54:41 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Yeah, I hear ya TN, too Yankee-heavy with Billy Martin and Casey Stengal...but, I certainly love Stengalese, and some condolences to dead Billy Martin's family, crazily driving his drunken azz to a horrible, crashing death...

Date: Mon Feb 6 15:04:11 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
And yeah, Rickey could run, but I fear his ego would clash with others in addition to Cobb. I'd go with Clemente instead, in RF, and move Aaron over to LF.

Date: Mon Feb 6 21:10:13 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Pitch Timer Shift Rules Larger Bases Ricky could have stolen 2000 of them.

Date: Mon Feb 6 21:32:24 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Just had a very short video clip of Satchel on the mound from the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum on a repeat Antiques Road Show. [edit: and just *now* had a 1950 Mays minor league jersey from the Minneapolis Millers.]

Date: Tue Feb 7 13:04:22 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
I'd certainly have a late-inning defensive sub for Ricky, but I'd certainly want his OBP and SBs on the basepaths with a tie or deficit, till the seventh, regularly...

Date: Tue Feb 7 13:39:17 2023
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
Who knew that the only baseball records that Albert Pujols holds are all about grounding into double plays. He holds a huge lead in the career grounding into double plays stat. 😔

Date: Tue Feb 7 13:45:17 2023
User: firenze
Message:
Any starting pitcher who couldn't go nine innings every four days shouldn't be considered.

Date: Tue Feb 7 13:51:52 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
That's an amazing factoid. Just looked at the list, and the vast majority of the top guys are HOFers. Somewhat because of large numbers of plate appearances, but also because a lot of those guys hit clean-up - or at least 3rd thru 5th.

Date: Tue Feb 7 15:20:25 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
I think my revised version will dispense with the DH, since I said I'd be going old old school...like comprising the 25-man roster for a best-of-nine Series...

Date: Tue Feb 7 16:20:51 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
There really could be no other choice (dispensing with the DH). An interesting wrinkle could be to play at least 2 games with (semi-) dead balls. Vast majority of your team(s) didn't play with those, so it would be too onerous for them to go that far back in time. But the more I think about that.............the more I like it. And no spitters allowed. Need to seriously consider Spahn instead of Big Unit for a lefty. Bullpen could rest that day. Switching Mays for Cobb not a bad idea, either.

Date: Wed Feb 8 12:42:53 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
Going "dead-ball" era, maybe I go with Candy Cummings in relief, supposed inventor of the curve ball...imagine having a new trick nobody knew about? I'd also want Rube Waddell on my (mentally) injured reserve.

Date: Wed Feb 8 16:34:36 2023
User: mrbuck
Message:
Klepp, Going with Rube Waddell would be a great choice, until a firetruck came along. mrbuck

Date: Wed Feb 8 16:45:20 2023
User: firenze
Message:
I've heard no mention of Christy Mathewson. What do you experts have against him?

Date: Wed Feb 8 23:14:53 2023
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
I really like Mathewson too. This exercise all comes down to how you rate past outliers (such as Ruth) against modern players (where the competition has clearly been much higher). And, factor in how you feel about PEDs. No matter what, Ruth is clearly a freak. For pitchers, I lost a dollar to my Grandmother 👵 betting Yankees over Cardinals back when a dollar was a ton of money because Gibson was just a stud. Griffey Jr. was and still is highly underrated because he wasn’t on the juice in the era when almost everyone else was on the juice. And, my deep fondness for Henry Aaron has been discussed many times before.

Date: Wed Feb 8 23:59:36 2023
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
Wow, I went to baseball-reference all-time WAR leaders and the list is dominated by old-timers and recent PED users. Mays and Aaron are the only exceptions - with Mays holding a slight edge over the Hammer. Based on box scores (which I scanned religiously back in the day) Aaron was clearly the best but box scores didn’t account for defense so I’m guessing that’s why WAR favors Mays. As for the old-timers, has to be an artifact of fewer teams back in those days. I need the stats geeks at 538 to figure out how to adjust for that. Not sure how to factor in PEDs as that’s a matter of personal opinion except for the known cheaters (and obvious cheaters).

Date: Thu Feb 9 08:52:17 2023
User: firenze
Message:
Consideration needs to be given to the fact that major league baseball did expand from 16 teams to 30 teams. It could be argued that with the expansion, good pitchers are pitching against an inferior pool of hitters, and good hitters are hitting against an inferior pool of pitchers.

Date: Thu Feb 9 09:22:25 2023
User: TNmountainman
Message:
What firenze said ^^^^. Elias, or somebody, did some sort of analysis of all that back in maybe the '80s(??), and came to similar conclusions, altho I don't remember the details. I'm sure sabermetrics can be applied, and surely have been. Seems like Nate and his crew at 538 have also done some stuff in that regard, but not gonna go look it up. Relatedly..........................esp. @ Klepp and mrbuck, and whoever else enjoys this stuff, I've been digging (and not just recently) into some of the old 'stories' of bygone eras, partly done from interviews as the players were aging, and partly from deep research from a variety of sources. I first present this very interesting page. It'll take a while to fully absorb much of it, but it only takes reading maybe 4-5-7 or these to appreciate how incredibly different (quite incredible, sometimes) 'things' were back then. Freddy Schmidt is a good one - interviewed when he was 95 in 2011. Or Rollie Stiles, who was 100 at the time of the interview, and who played against Ruth. But good nuggets sprinkled throughout. Lots of surprising "hidden" details, etc. Another site later. And p.s. - nothing wrong with Mathewson, of course. I just don't think Klepp wants a bloated pitching staff when most of those guys are gonna be throwing CGs anyway.

Link: interviews with players from the days gone by

Date: Mon Feb 13 19:27:01 2023
User: Klepp
Message:
"MLB's joint competition committee unanimously voted to make the "ghost runner" permanent. A runner will continue to begin the 10th inning, and every ensuing inning, on second base until determining a winner."--some online stuff to probably believe

Date: Tue Feb 14 09:33:30 2023
User: mrbuck
Message:
TN, That's an awesome link. Thanks for finding and posting it. Klepp, I hate the ghost runner rule. But it could save me money. I can return to watching Little League games since the rules are becoming the same, but no pitch clock. mrbuck