Subject: Jamie Moyer of...
Date: Sat May 8 05:57:21 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Sellersville,Pennsylvania pitched a 2-hit/0-walk 7-0 shutout for the Philadelphia Phillies over the Atlanta Braves on 7 May,2010 at the age of 47. Believe It Or Not!
Date: Sat May 8 08:24:19 2010
User: LumberJack
Message:Must be that rocket 82 mph fastball of his.
Date: Sat May 8 08:38:06 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Its not always how FAST,sometimes its just where you PUT it.
Date: Sat May 8 09:07:09 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:And how you put it.
Date: Sat May 8 09:13:59 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Gotta have the right stuff.
Date: Sat May 8 09:34:40 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:And the right strike zone.
Date: Sat May 8 17:02:26 2010
User: LumberJack
Message:Where the "rolleyes" smilie?
Date: Sat May 8 21:58:31 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:HE started it...
;-)
Date: Mon May 10 01:34:38 2010
User: dR.!_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:More pitching stuff. That pitcher(Dallas Braden)who went off on the only New York Yankee I dont care much for,Alex Rodriguez,for doing yet another brainless act during that Yankee triple play game,just threw only the 19th PERFECT GAME in MLB history for the Oakland A's against the best team in MLB,the Tampa Bay Rays!
Date: Mon May 10 09:16:25 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:*Really, really* nice story in *SI* on Braden and his perfect game....
(with even a Moyer mention)
(highly recommended reading)
Link: Braden's story
Date: Mon May 10 10:15:36 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:Super story!
But it puts me to mind of the "perfect game" that actually wasn't. In 1959, Pittsburgh's Harvey Haddix fired a 12-and-2/3 inning perfect game against the Milwaukee Braves. It was broken up by an error on the 3rd out of the 13th inning. So, because it wasn't a complete perfect game (even though 3+ innings greater than "real" perfect games.)
His opponent was Lew Burdette, who pitched a scoreless game and won 2-0 in the 13th. By the way, the fact later came to light that every Braves batter took advantage of stolen signs but Hank Aaron. They knew what pitches were coming! (He only had 2 pitches to work with!)
A couple other items. Harvey really was a little guy. And even more remarkable, in these days when a manager hopes for 5 or 6 good innings from his starters, both pitchers went the whole distance. Wow!
Link: Harvey's 12 plus inning "perfect" game
Date: Mon May 10 10:52:32 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:Clarification, if you don't mind:
The perfect game was ended by Hoak's error, with no outs. The no-hitter aspect was ruined by Adcock's homer (later changed to a double because he passed Aaron on the basepath for the second out) with one out. (A sacrifice bunt was the first out.) (And the score was later changed to 1-0 because the home run was changed to a double.)
I always felt bad for Haddix because of that, but he certainly got a lot of acclaim for it over the years.
But he got that great 7th game win in '60...
Date: Mon May 10 11:46:52 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:Thanks for the clarification, TN. I quickly pulled my info out of the linked reference, and must have missed the fact the error occurred on the first out. Yes, the following events that inning were pretty well outlined in the Wikipedia article.
In 1991 the rules were changed so any game of 9 perfect innings would henceforth be termed a perfect game. It even allowed for multiple pitchers! (But that didn't do Harvey any good!)
I never saw the game, it having been in Milwaukee and not televised, but I did listen raptly to it on the radio. (That's one thing we have lost in Pirates-land.) I have no idea how many people listen to Pirates games over the radio any more. You could be working on the car, gardening, chatting with the neighbor, and somebody always seemed to have the game on. In the car, instead of listening to a song for the hundredth time, it was Pirates baseball.
I'm sorry to see that lost. Along with competitive baseball.
Thanks, TN.
Date: Mon May 10 11:59:11 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:Yep and yep. I was a *huge* baseball fan up until about the mid '90s. The strikes and it becoming more of a business than a sport really turned me off. I don't know probably 3/4 of the players now........
As a youngster, I became a fan of the Cleveland Indians and Milwaukee Braves - at first because of their nickname identification with Native Americans - whom I felt for because we (many of the ancestors of a lot of us) took/stole this land from them....
But I also liked Rocky Colavito and Tito Francona, along with the great Indians' pitching staff that came just a bit later......Seibert, (Sudden Sam) McDowell, El Tiante, etc....
Good times.......
Date: Mon May 10 12:00:14 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:One of the Wiki links had an intriguing title, so I clicked it. Harvey stood 5'9"" and weighed 155 pounds. He was just recovering from the flu, but promised he would pitch as long as he could.
One quote was quite funny. After the game a newspaper reporter asked him "Would you say, Harvey, that this was the best game you ever pitched?"
Link: "Tales From the Pirates Dugout"
Date: Mon May 10 12:21:08 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:Can't get that link to work properly. I can see the cover page and the contents, and then the rest of the pages say something like: "You have either reached a page that is unavailable for viewing, or you have reached your viewing limit for this book."
I knew he was a little guy.
Date: Mon May 10 14:23:20 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:Hmmm... every time I click it, it goes straight to the chapter on that game. Of course, it could be a cookies thingy. Did you search within for Harvey Haddix?
It also shows within the Google search bar "Harvey Haddix fraternity." (The reason it likely does is they first time the writer searched, he must have used that term to arrive at that page.) It explains how his college fraternity wrote him a telegram saying "Hey Harvey. Tough shit."
The book immediately goes to Fred Haney after the piece about Harvey Haddix's game.
You might want to try that search term, TN.
Date: Mon May 10 15:04:44 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:Funny thing, TN. Once you get into the book, you can navigate all of it. One person I sought was ElRoy Face, the great Pirates' relief pitcher. His record in 1959 was 18-1! That same year he won 17 in a row.
But what struck me about Face was after 16 years in baseball, most as one of its best relief pitchers, he went to work as a carpenter. I met him at Mayview State (mental) Hospital near Pittsburgh. His idea of "financial security" wasn't today's multi-million dollar contracts. He worked decades for regular pay after the game, and a state retirement.
Tell that to today's spoiled Major League brats. (No. Don't. They would likely laugh at him.)
Link: ElRoy Face
Date: Mon May 10 16:52:00 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Thanks for the link TN. Gotta run now but I cant wait to see it when I return!
Date: Mon May 10 21:59:17 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:I don't use Google search bar, SG......
I could see from the Table of Contents that it was on page 71(?), but I could find no pages available after the Contents. Yeah, could be a cookie thing or something. I also have a fairly old and handicapped system.
'Course I knew all about Face's baseball exploits; didn't know the rest. In fact, it was only in about the late '50s or early '60s that many baseball players made enough money to not have to work during the off-season. Different world........
Date: Tue May 11 00:04:23 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Native Americans. TNMountainman,youre one cool cat. This Story on Dallas Braden reminds me of New York papers. Very well written and rich in every detail of said game. Couple of things I can add though is that the Kouzmanov catch WAS a tuffy in which he just BARELY caught it as he flew into the A's dugout luckily avoiding injury. Also,Evan Longoria actually tried BUNTING in the fifth and Dallas didnt go off on him. Not sure why not,maybe cuz hes(Evan)a nice guy! Thanks,TN .great catch.
Date: Tue May 11 00:41:12 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:SI's writers throughout the decades are among the best out there....
Most of the old stuff still holds up very, very well....
Date: Thu Jun 3 01:24:33 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:This isnt real. Where are all these coming from? Thats 3 in 22-days! Braden,Halladay and now Galarraga. What do you think,maybe a couple more by July? Baseball needs to reverse the call. Itll always be a perfecto.
Date: Thu Jun 3 01:46:00 2010
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:It's the continuation of the pitching dominated era from the 70's - broken up by the 'roid era - but still the current paradigm in baseball.
On a related note, Junior Griffey retired today. He's easily the best "true" baseball player of the past fifty years and it's a shame most fans just don't know it. Consider:
- 10 straight gold gloves at Center Field.
- 4th all time in Home Runs at 630 - would have been 670 if he hadn't had to face pitchers on 'roids; - would have been 800+ without injuries.
- At the same time, would have been 300 more HRs than any other player in his era not on 'roids.
The biggest shame about Barroid Bonds, Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, A-Roid, etc. is that the make the hitting accomplishments of Griffey lose perspective.
Date: Thu Jun 3 04:16:34 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Its a shame,indeed. Love that last line!
Date: Thu Jun 3 08:52:59 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:Many errors in football (American) and baseball are engraved forever, because the next play in the game has transpired. But in this instance, it was (or at least would/should have been) the last out of the game. The commissioner should find a way to just declare that the "out" had caused the game to end. And that the next bat never occurred.
And that he is awarded the perfect game that he earned and deserved.
I firmly agree with you about Griffey, Jr., by the way.
Date: Thu Jun 3 17:59:54 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:As a life-long (until I became disinterested - see above) Indians fan, this story is a very good read....
(warning: mild profanity)
(and btw, Rocky Colavito was my favorite player)
Link: apologizing to Tony Horton
Date: Thu Jun 3 20:17:20 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:What a fan,huh! Northern Jersey? Perfect place for that silly loser to end his miserable existence. Cant make it in NY(or Cleveland)? Guess where they all end up? Northern Jersey. Got family there myself,even. Never visit them. DESPISE that place. Best part bout this story,actually,is the post by prez687 (another loser) about drunken him and friends "enjoying" a game in which they hardly remember much except their losing antics at the game and especially the Raiders fan who "got it" for being vocal about his team in the parking lot afterwaeds "just a year after Red Right-88",then they all crash into a tree! Lets hear one for the home(Cleveland)team,L-O-S-E-R-S! Its that NFL game that always intrigued me as the epitome of loserdom. You can explain it to me a million times yet Ill never figure out why they didnt go for the field goal. Thanks TN,for a really sad,pitiful story. And the time is SO now for them to change that IDIOTIC NAME to the Cleveland Cuyahogas,Tribe or anything but Indians! Just because sime silly fool got lost on his way to india half a millennium ago,theres no excuse to call a baseball team(or ANY team in USA)that idiotic name. Maybe if they change the thoughtless name,the gods of Karma(real Indian word)will let them win for a change.
Date: Thu Jun 3 22:35:50 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:I almost linked that site, too, since it was in the article. And as a reminder (again, see above), the perfect game was lost with no outs in the 13th, on the error, so *only* 12.0 inn. of perfection......
And I hope Cleveland and Atlanta keep their nicknames. They were/are a sign of respect, remember, although of course I see your point, too....
Glad they got rid of the Baltimore Bullets and the Houston Colt .45s, though....
Date: Fri Jun 4 00:35:01 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:TN,Youre SO right about the innings it aint funny. I saw your clarification but never read it since I missed the article above it,originally,yet I read Snowys miscalculation afterwards and accepted it,never re-reading your entry. Interesting how mis-information kind of snowballs if not checked. The other thing,about the Cleveland Indians name,is actually DIS-respect. There arent any Indians in the USA and never have been any,unless they migrated here from INDIA. All others are various TRIBES of natives,many of which we,or other migrants,named. Their OWN tribal names are quite different from what we use today. Example: Zunis CALL THEMSELVES Ashiwi,(our people). The name Zuni(with n tilde)came from Insurgent Spanish moving north for any gold they could pillage. Theyre(Am.tribes)certainly not Indians,for thats about,but not quite,the farthest thing from who they actually are. The Atlanta Braves can keep their nick. Whats wrong with Braves? Reason I suggested Cuyahoga for Cleveland is thats a local tribe, which is a nice-sounding,AND RESPECTFUL name at the same time and it gets rid of that INCORRECT nick,Indians. Bad thing about calling these tribes INDIANS is they now call THEMSELVES by the same misnomer. Lies lead to more lies and it just snowballs.
Date: Fri Jun 4 03:49:24 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:Well, again I see your viewpoint, of course, but still respectfully differ.
Of course we all know the 'original' appellation of "Indians" was quite wrong in the context of the subcontinent of "India". Columbus and his cronies knew no better for a while, and the name stuck. Thus we have the "West Indies", etc. Surely this is a great historical error, but reversing history is quite impractical. Native Americans, a people who migrated from Asia only ~12,000 years ago (with some doubt/confusion/uncertainty about that proximate time frame), call themselves that ("Indian"), for the most part, even it may not be their preferred designation. It's one of those cases where the original meaning of the word has simply broadened and changed. Yes, agreed, some Native Americans bristle at that usage, but most don't, and one would be hard pressed to find *intent* of disrespect in using that term, and in my book, intent is the key factor.
On the other hand, the term "Negro" was in a similar situation only 50 years ago, and gradually fell in favor and has been replaced. It's not hard to imagine a similar sentiment for Native Americans, and an analogous change in the future. But for now, "Cleveland Indians" is not a term of disrespect to Native Americans, but an attempt at connoting and aligning the team with an image of bravery (a la "Braves"), fierceness, etc.
Date: Fri Jun 4 04:30:30 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Cleveland Indians. No disrespect to Native Americans,then its RESPECTFUL to Indians,from India you mean? This isnt anything about "reversing" history. Its about simply getting it right for the simple sake of its proper. Someone got lost,called em Indians,it stuck. Makes sense. Over time we discovered the difference though. At that very moment,it shouldve been changed. It obviously wasnt though,and we can do nothing about it now especially since THEY address themselves as Indians? Wrong. Its long past that moment and even if theres no governing body to address such issues, we can call them Native Americans or better yet,by their(Euro)given tribal names OR even better,address them by THEIR OWN tribal names. Nothing wrong with Chicago BLACKHAWKS(besides sweeping the Sharks),Atlanta BRAVES or Kansas City CHIEFS. They all address TRIBES or TRIBAL LEADERS. That still leaves those Clevelanders. What are they waiting for,Shalako?
Date: Fri Jun 4 08:43:48 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:Thanks for the link to the box score, FAST! It's an awesome page (I mean in its design and presentation, not just because that particular page is of Harvey's 12 inning perfect game.) Of course, the shame is that, as of 1991, if even a starter and four relievers combine to pitch a 9 inning perfect game and then lose it in the 10th, it still goes on record as a perfect game. But Harvey's will go down on record forever as a 1-hitter. Not quite the same. Which brings me to Gallaraga.
I have heard it said many time recently that "people will remember Gallaraga's game more than those that are on record as "perfect." I don't buy that for a second, as a factor outweighing the bad call. Yes, like Haddix, he will be remembered for what he did, and will undoubtedly become the answer to trivia questions. But when people look up the list of perfect games (20 overall, 18 Modern Era) his name won't be on it. Heck, even when they look up the much longer list of no-hitters (265, 223 Modern Era) his name won't be shown.
I don't think anybody pays attention to who threw 1-hitters.
A couple side notes:
I find Atlanta's and Florida State's "Tomahawk Chop" to be quite irritating.
Many more people (and just about everybody I speak with) refer Native Americans as such these days.
Date: Fri Jun 4 15:53:40 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:True,Snowguy. Only local fans and true baseball enthusiasts will know Haddix. He should be listed ON TOP of all perfect games,with an asterisk noting 12 innings and final score. Galarraga should just have the star to show umps error. Whats REALLY AMAZING about Haddix is the apparent stealing of signs,which is why he should be listed on top,or at least,chronologically. Guess its up to us,the fans to remember these and the writers/recorders to list them as perfect games with asterisks,not 1-hitters. I dont buy it either. If it aint writ,it aint membered!
Date: Tue Jul 27 03:57:22 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:No-hitter, I mean; not a perfect game, although he did face only the minimum.....
Date: Tue Jul 27 09:30:23 2010
User: quackisback
Message:Back to Jamie Moyer....it appears he's out for the season and possibly the end of his career due to an injury he sustained the other day. We sure do miss him. He was a work horse on the field and a great guy off the field.
Date: Tue Jul 27 12:50:52 2010
User: LumberJack
Message:Well, the only part of him you have to miss is the on-the-field part. He can now be a great guy off the field as a full time job.
Date: Tue Jul 27 13:28:36 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Thanks,TNmountainman-yet another great 2K10 pitching story. And if not for that walk to Boesch,hed have the 4th perfecto this year! Still,its now the 6th no-hitter(5 official)this year. Funny how everyone totally discounts Armandos perfect game as if it never,or ALMOST,happened. Galarraga did it with room to spare. You know its ironic Minnesota,of all teams,let him go,especially with that good K/BB ratio. The Twins always seem to have an incredibly low amount of BBs. Coincidence or coaching? Got any idea,TN,on this matter?
Date: Tue Jul 27 13:31:27 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:quackisback,sad to hear bout that. The Angels just made a huge trade for Danny Haren two days back and in his first game yesterday,he gets hit in the pitching arm with a line drive and is out indefinitely! Dont think Ive ever heard of such bad luck in such a big trade before.
Date: Tue Jul 27 13:38:53 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:Nope; remember, I don't really follow baseball much anymore - or at least not the day-to-day happenings. Just happened to see this....
Date: Sun Aug 1 10:32:12 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:Yesterday I hosted a table at a Bi-centennial celebration (for about 8 hours, actually.) I was wearing a tee shirt with a picture of the old Forbes Field in Pittsburgh on the front. (Long since torn down to make way for U. of Pitt expansion.) A fellow approached me with a story.
He said in the 1903 World Series, where the Pittsburgh team lost to Boston, the winning team players each received $1100. The losing team, however, each got $1300! I wondered how that could be! He said Barney Dreyfuss, the owner, split his owner's entire share among the players.
Okay, here's a Wikipedia article that supports his story. Something else amazing is a Pirates pitcher tossed 5 complete games during the series due to injury to another ace of the staff. (3 were wins.) Five complete games! These days, a pitcher is said to do well if he can pitch 6 or more "quality innings" every 5 games.
Wusses.
Link: First World Series, 1903
Date: Sun Aug 1 20:23:01 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:I was checkin linescores for Saturdays games and my eyes almost popped out when I spotted Dallas Braden of the Oakland Athletics actually pitched a complete game 6-2 victory over the Chicago White Sox. When I was younger,my parents had to repeatedly explain to me why the WINNING team got all the money. I always figgered the LOSING team should be paid the higher amount due to their pain and suffering. The winners WON. They dont need anything special. Good to hear payouts turned out "right" for one series,at least. Thanks Snowguy,fun readin bout Honus and Cy again.
Date: Tue Aug 3 05:05:27 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:Snowguy,I think Oakland is trying to match those 5 complete games that Pirates pitcher had only with different pitchers,of course. Since I posted about Dallas Braden getting his,two consecutive complete games have occurred! Heres the third straight from Cahill on Monday night.
Link: Third in a row...
Date: Tue Aug 3 06:18:02 2010
User: Snowguy
Message:True, except the guy in 1903 got the five completes in a single 8-game World Series! But 5 completes by any pitcher these days would be beyond amazing. I doubt even the better pitchers could pitch 5 completes in a month, or maybe even a season these days.
Date: Tue Aug 3 06:47:54 2010
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:I know that,which is why I referenced Oakland has used 3 DIFFERENT players. Ironic how you mentioned how rarely anyone goes past 6 innings today and from that moment on,Oakland runs off 3 straight completes. I dont think any team has even done that in at least a decade. I was reading up on that Pirates pitcher,Philippi,and saw he actually went on to get another 20-win season tho he missed half that next year(1904)due to,you guessed it,a sore arm.
Date: Tue Aug 3 09:23:23 2010
User: TNmountainman
Message:Just now read the Gentile story. Very nice story. But he didn't "win" the RBI title, then, he only tied for it with Maris. I saw him play in Baltimore twice, I think, but it wasn't 1961. It was either '60 or '62, I think, possibly '63. They played the Athletics (not the "A's" yet) - the *Kansas City* Athletics, of course. I would have guessed he was bigger than 6'3"; he sure looked it.... (But he wasn't Frank Howard big.)
Thanks for posting, ISHAM.....
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