Subject: Rarely won winnables.

Date: Sun Dec 4 12:17:56 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Lol! Can you say outrageous hypocrisy?

Tolerance for strapons!

Tony is a cheater!

Attack the woman who tells the truth!

I am rofl and can't get up

Date: Sun Dec 4 13:12:55 2022
User: cellmate
Message:

this fits in somehow


Link: spunk

Date: Sun Dec 4 13:50:08 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
This whole thread is ("can you say") blatant hypocrisy - or at the least the initiation of it was. To start a thread, and call it "Rarely won winnables.", by reporting on a game that you didn't win - until maybe the 30th or 50th or more try, is hypocritical. Not that there aren't some things worthwhile within; there are. But it was started with a lie and false pretense.

Date: Sun Dec 4 13:53:23 2022
User: redberet
Message:
He was awarded points, so it was a first try.

Date: Sun Dec 4 14:11:02 2022
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:
I can assure you that's not the case. I was there. I lost count of how many tries before he entered our shared work into the "results".

Date: Sun Dec 4 14:24:51 2022
User: cellmate
Message:

"blatant hypocrisy".... i think not

this thread attracts players looking for challenging games

Date: Sun Dec 4 14:58:22 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
You've got to be kidding. TT has been complimented for his "streak" and he brags about his Elo. His streak is totally bogus, and his Elo would be around mine if he actually recorded a loss every time he restarted.

Comments about TT that I completely endorse concern his persistence and his ability to eventually defeat very difficult games.

Date: Sun Dec 4 15:03:14 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
Yes, it most certainly is blatant hypocrisy to start a thread about winning a game one didn't win.

Date: Sun Dec 4 15:08:39 2022
User: cellmate
Message:

ooo... of course... both of you, you're not attacking the thread, you're attacking the originator

Date: Sun Dec 4 16:01:56 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
What an odd interpretation. I am disputing his statistics, not his character.

Date: Sun Dec 4 16:11:54 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
That's the m.o. I had been operating under, also, until this, posted in the "Never won winnables" thread:

Date: Tue Nov 22 16:00:40 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
No, it's not silly; it is highly satisfying! I hadn't thought of that last part. Excellent, that will make it even harder (or impossible) for them to ever catch up with me. HoHoHo!
---------
firenze then "told it like it is":

Date: Tue Nov 22 16:32:51 2022
User: firenze
Message:
That's so sad and pathetic. I actually feel sorry for you. El Guapo, Denny, and others put a lot of work into developing an Elo for this site. all for people like you to make it meaningless. How will we ever know if the game ratings or the player ratings are what they should be.
==========================================

So..........altho it truly pains me to say it............Ok, I won't. firenze said it for me. I had, until then, been giving him the benefit of the doubt about his ch........

Date: Sun Dec 4 16:18:25 2022
User: cellmate
Message:

Buzz, again you attack the originator, not the thread

TN. one thread at at a time please

Everyone, be constructive like ...

Tony, please throw a loss before your win if appropriate

Or why is win counted once but every loss is counted, only the first is relevant

Date: Sun Dec 4 17:02:59 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
1. The two threads, in this case, are quite relevant together, as they speak to motive (as if this was a courtroom).

2. Good luck on TT throwing a loss. I certainly agree with the suggestion, but I don't think that's gonna happen. Got to protect his elo and all.

3. As to your final question..............if I understand it correctly..............most here think the true challenge of a game is 'beating it' - and that means on first try - not clubbing it into submission with X number of attempts (which would include using external aids). After playing a game once, one has additional information that enables one to be better able to conquer it - thus a more advantageous situation.
Tournaments are different, of course (altho I would argue they shouldn't be).

Date: Sun Dec 4 18:40:17 2022
User: cellmate
Message:

TN,
#1 ignored
#2 he may surprise us
#3
i have a far greater admiration for players who keep playing til they win than for players who lose on the first try and walk away
i have an even greater admiration for those who say "i tried... i can't beat it... can you take a look?" to me, that is the so called "spirit of the game"

Date: Sun Dec 4 19:35:30 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
"Ok" on the first 2.

As for #3, if he were playing in a vacuum, or anonymously, that'd be just fine and dandy. But it completely ignores the fact that he knowingly plays with his standard handle/name, competitively, for the purposes of self-aggrandizement. Admittedly now, with his cackling in the other thread.

So we know that he KNOWINGLY does it at the expense of others - or at least of their competitive pursuits. With relish. He is clearly SELFISHLY putting his own personal quests ahead of all others'. I don't think there's any other way to see it. And that's quite simply "indefensible", at least in my book.

Date: Sun Dec 4 19:58:22 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
This is a first for me. Although I have had people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, this is the first time someone has told me I don't know what I'm thinking.

Tip of the hat, cellmate. I may consult you in the future for my innermost thoughts and motivations.

Date: Sun Dec 4 22:29:06 2022
User: Kaos
Message:
OK, most of us can’t relate to TT. He’s not wired like you or me. He’s exploiting a loophole that if you or I exploited it would take away from our enjoyment of the game. Yet, he does it, and he may not be alone. At least he’s upfront about it. I don’t admire the fact that he exploits this loophole but I do admire his acknowledgment of it and that he confesses that it works for him.

Clearly, a large number of the top players here are also really good at computer programming. I’m one of them, (or, at least I know I’m really, really good at computer programming). I’m sure I could written a great freecell solver. Or, downloaded one and made it work. But, I knew for me it would be like getting addicted to crack cocaine or some other highly addictive substance. Winning that way would not be satisfying. TT claims it is for him. That doesn’t bother me. It wouldn’t be my choice, but it is his. Best let it be.

Date: Sun Dec 4 23:03:42 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
A while back, I stated I was going to back off on this issue, and I did. And I bit my tongue a couple of times. Then, in a response to a comment by "Narrows", Tony brought forth his "HoHoHo" (etc.) quoted above. firenze's response was appropriate, as Tony's expression was more appalling than anything he had theretofore expressed. But even then I bit my tongue. But finally this last dust-up pushed me to express agreement with firenze's statement.
That and this said, I'm backing off again. Not that I agree with any views herein expressed supporting with him. Just that his wanton behavior has now been exposed more than ever. The push for justice isn't ending, just on pause.

Date: Sun Dec 4 23:09:21 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Question for Kaos...............if Tony could somehow corrupt, disrupt, and make less meaningful the tournament scene, would you still feel the same way? I suspect perhaps, "yes", but do that thought experiment diligently, as him doing so would be harder to imagine.

Date: Mon Dec 5 02:08:48 2022
User: Kaos
Message:
Tn, to answer your question, I’m a huge fan of the serenity prayer. And, I’m really lucky and comfortable ignoring things I can’t control. I’m guessing TT isn’t alone on using aids in the streaking/Elo realm. You can’t change it.

That said, it is nice that using cards as an aid in tournaments doesn’t really help at all (much better to lose quickly playing online).

Date: Mon Dec 5 03:38:30 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Thanks for your response. ✅ I think I take your last sentence as being glad you don't really have to worry about it - tho I'm not trying to re-work your words. And the serenity prayer, coupled with the tournament format, are, I guess, a kind of 'insulation' from even having to confront an analogous issue.

I also, believe it or not, believe in that prayer; but find it harder, apparently, to decide what is totally outside of remedial action. I *personally* can't change this, but it seems like we all, in our own little corners of the world, should work for betterment - which includes all kinds of 'justice' and equality goals. I probably try too hard to do too much, but that's just the way I'm hard-wired. It's a gigantic insult to my senses to see someone taking advantage of others. I just can't turn my back on those instances - if there's anything I can do to make the situation better. Even, like here, if it's just lobbying, and shaming the transgressors.

Date: Mon Dec 5 04:16:40 2022
User: Ellie2
Message:
I think that having the patience to use cards is admirable. I even do it myself sometimes...

Date: Mon Dec 5 04:21:48 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
By the way,

Date: Tue Nov 22 16:00:40 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
No, it's not silly; it is highly satisfying! I hadn't thought of that last part. Excellent, that will make it even harder (or impossible) for them to ever catch up with me. HoHoHo!

was a joke! i thought the "HoHoHo" made that obvious. I don't even believe that my "failure to lose" adversely effects the games Elo! Certainly my winning has very little effect on the games Elo, since I'm always expected to win...

Date: Mon Dec 5 04:37:03 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
I suggest card usage to newer players as well, in particular my grade-school aged nieces (those gals have graduated to fairly effective Nine to Fivers already!).

Date: Mon Dec 5 07:05:33 2022
User: Uberman
Message:
Nice try at expanding the list of card users, 'Ellie2', but I remember your name being one of TitanicTony's aliases from back when Denny allowed us to search for them. So are you also TT, or his wife, maybe?

Date: Mon Dec 5 08:35:25 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Clearly, the self-righteous and sanctimonious have no clue about the difference between right and wrong. Frankly, that makes them insane.

Date: Mon Dec 5 08:39:03 2022
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
Just checking to see if this nick is still active. It doesn't appear on my list.

Date: Mon Dec 5 08:39:50 2022
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
Yep. still works.

Date: Mon Dec 5 08:44:04 2022
User: redberet
Message:
I have a theory. TN and TT are twins and that's why they are always at it.

Date: Mon Dec 5 09:53:25 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Mr. Rogers would not approve this thread.

Date: Mon Dec 5 10:02:49 2022
User: Narrows
Message:
Oh, geez, here we go.

Date: Mon Dec 5 10:11:25 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
*noted. It was already "going", but discretion was needed. I edited my post from Mon Dec 5 09:53:25 2022.

Date: Mon Dec 5 10:15:01 2022
User: Narrows
Message:
Bless you.

Date: Mon Dec 5 10:19:08 2022
User: The_Revelator
Message:
Stay in your lane, bub.

Date: Mon Dec 5 11:21:02 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Hey Tony! 12 posts up, you wrote

"was a joke! i thought the "HoHoHo" made that obvious"


They wouldn't know a joke if it bit em in the tookus.

Date: Mon Dec 5 11:37:03 2022
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
When you have to explain that it was a joke, it probably wasn't.

Date: Mon Dec 5 15:56:05 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Thanks outskirts. I've thought for a long time that TN has a rather twisted sense of humour.

And, nobody bothered to comment on my assertions:
I don't even believe that my "failure to lose" adversely effects the games Elo! Certainly my winning has very little effect on the games Elo, since I'm always expected to win...

Date: Mon Dec 5 16:29:56 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Yes I thought about pointing out that statement because it's significant, IMO!

Date: Mon Dec 5 17:05:40 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
>>Date: Mon Dec 5 15:56:05 2022
>>User: TitanicTony
>>Message: "I don't even believe that my 'failure to lose' adversely effects the games Elo! Certainly my winning has very little effect on the games Elo, since I'm always expected to win..."

Although I am no expert on Elo, my understanding is that very little of your assertion is correct.
a) "I don't even believe that my 'failure to lose' adversely effects the games Elo!" Losing a game without recording the loss artificially impacts the game's difficulty. The game should be rated as more difficult, but you are taking that away. The next person to play that game will get less Elo benefit.
b) "Certainly my winning has very little effect on the games Elo, since I'm always expected to win..." Your failure to report losses greatly inflates your Elo and the the expectation that you will win.

I am not attacking you, Tony, I am simply challenging your words.

Some time back, firenze recognized that your use of cards gives you a huge advantage over those who don't use external aids, and he also recognized that nothing can be done about it. However, he implored you to quit talking about it because it really annoys people, and not just one or two of your fellow travelers. If you insist on talking about it, just accept the fact that there will be blowback.

Date: Tue Dec 6 05:11:55 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Buzz plays 13-14-15 sum games mostly. After all these years. Nuff said.

Date: Tue Dec 6 06:43:09 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
@ Buzz. If my Elo score was down where you think it should be, it would definitely have no impact (lol)!

And, yes, I'm definitely doing better on the difficult games since I started using cards some years ago!
It was actually TN who made be think of it (LOL). .... [He criticized me for only playing "click fests".]

Date: Tue Dec 6 07:16:10 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Now he's basing his belief of the knowledge of your motivations on something you said in jest, probably due to the harassment. Lol

No comment there. He knows you're honest.

Date: Tue Dec 6 07:32:22 2022
User: The_Interpreter
Message:
When they tell you who they are, believe them.

Date: Tue Dec 6 09:16:15 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Tony,

Yes, sir, we are definitely on the same page.

I hope TN was teasing and not serious when he knocked you for playing "click fests." It would be pretty low to criticize someone for their variant of choice.

Date: Tue Dec 6 12:24:30 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Well, I took it as dead serious. I don't think TN teases? And, since then, he has repeatedly ranted about "freecell lite".

Date: Tue Dec 6 12:55:21 2022
User: redberet
Message:
He refers to winnables as freecell lite.

Date: Tue Dec 6 12:57:42 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
"As it was told to me".........................I don't think TN would ever criticize anyone for their particular choice(s) of variants. Most likely, it would/could have been a subtext of being critical of Tony doing his other, earlier forms of self-aggrandizement. Remember, he used to *make up* multiple "contests" just so he could see his name in lights - always #1 or (at worst) #2. It's been a chronic pattern. That's not to diminish his contribution for running the SSC for quite a while. That was a worthwhile and noble act. Maybe he was suggesting, when Tony was doing the rotations of SSC choices, that he chose/promoted clickfests more often than the harder variants?

A quick search using Denny's function shows TN to be the first to use "clickfest" on this site (Dec. 2012), but I'm ~80% sure it wasn't him that coined the term. It could even have been first used at the hotel? I would be interested to see that "criticism", if one wanted to search for it. It might be a daunting task, however.

Date: Tue Dec 6 13:00:08 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
And yes, he's right - it's pretty clear that winnables are indeed "freecell lite". I think that to most here, that was adequately demonstrated with logic - altho, yes, there were a few holdouts.

Date: Tue Dec 6 13:07:42 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
What a bunch of opinionated nonsense.
The advent of the "Winnable variants" was a wonderful innovation, imo! THANKS, Denny, 🙂!!

Date: Tue Dec 6 13:22:15 2022
User: cellmate
Message:

An earlier 2006 thread had click fest references



Link: click fest