Subject: Never won winnables!
User: ElGuapo
Message:
@GoAdoptADog!, as far as Elo is concerned it's great that you're jumping around and playing different variants and levels. That all helps get the level averages closer to parity with each other. I'm not adjusting anything by hand, haven't done that in well over a year, so there's no harm in tipping me off if you find a level that helps your rating. There's also no harm in trying variants that may lower your rating temporarily. Don't lose on purpose of course, as that can mess things up, but the ratings have no memory so they adjust easily when you get back to the variants you're good at.
User: redberet
Message:
In other words, ELO is geared towards easier variants and don't expect to get a high ELO if you play the harder variants, where losses to winnables are frequent, no matter how good you are. ELO is a good indicator of not losing, not the difficulty of the wins.
User: ElGuapo
Message:
If the games and the player are rated right, there's no reason to expect Elo to change regardless of where you play. I did not mean to say easy variants are better for your rating (nor does that seem to have been my experience), but it could be true if the particular ones you choose were overrated. Even then, you have to play a ton of 'em to make a real difference.
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
My experience seems to agree with that of redberet. Just sayin'.
User: ElGuapo
Message:
You both got the majority of your point gains in 12x0 according to Hop's page he linked here a few posts back. Three of the four most overrated game levels on the site when Elo started were 12x0-10, -11, and -12. Nothing wrong with that, we had a wildly overrated variant and you guys helped bring it down to earth. What stands out when I look at how the Elo averages have changed isn't how easy or hard the variant is, but the difficulty level within the variant. We definitely underrated many level 5 and 6 games at first, and overrated levels 8–12. The level 7 game ratings have been pretty steady.
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
Just to be clear.......as I think you know.......I certainly wasn't "elo hunting/mining" back then - or ever. I have a very long history of playing 11x0s and 12x0s, so whatever effect came from my direction was totally accidental. And I never (or essentially never) play climates higher than I'm at via regular play. Doubt I've ever played a climate 11 or 12 game - or if I did, it was only out of curiosity.
Not to mention.......as we all well know........climate 5 games are harder than climate 6 games. 😊😉
User: redberet
Message:
If it sounds like I'm complaining about having a lower ELO, I'm not. It's lower because I went back to my normal style of play. So it's where it should be according to Hoyle. I really don't see a solution with hard and easy variants in regard to ELO equity, only because of the differences in the win/loss ratio occurring during normal play. It's not a stretch to say someone who has managed 2K playing strictly 8x4 wouldn't be there very long if they went 10sum.
You forgot to mention those inflated ELO ratings also came with deductions for unwinnables.
User: ElGuapo
Message:
It's cool, I didn't think you were complaining. I still don't think we're seeing eye to eye here, but I've probably sidetracked this thread enough.
User: redberet
Message:
I got nowhere the first try, second was the charm.
| Game: | 10x0 14313-5 |
| Game stats: | 36/1/2.8% |
| Player Elo: | n/a |
| Elapsed: | 7:57 |
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Hey y’all-wasn’t ignoring y’all’s responses. I caught flu or strep or just a bad cold, idk, (not Covid tho,) and started running fever for a day or so not long after my last post.
I don’t do well when sick, I’m such a baby and basically convince myself of impending death if I so much as have a bad allergy flare up, lol, so was in poor shape, living on hot tea, sinus meds, and epsom salt steams (which are truly a God send)
Thanks for the kind words before TN, and all the info from you Guapo. Am on the mend so will be back playing a bit over next few days prob. Happy weekend to all and may you stay warm and healthy as the winter weather comes round : )
Ps- just saw there’s a thread for rarely won winnables too. To ask real quick, when someone shares game #, do others get a chance to play it? That was a reason for my posting before in case any of y’all wanted elo but I realize I’m not actually sure if that’s a thing. If not, sorry for any confusion. (Guapo, if anyone has sidetracked the thread, it’s prob me.. eeps! my bad! but I swear I’ll stop after that last question)
User: BrewCrewOldSkool
Message:
Scroll down to "Custom" when choosing variant--one can pick one's game...
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Oh duh. Thanks Brew! I play a good bit of custom games but just completely overlooked the game number box at the bottom of the settings. Had only ever noticed cell, column, and difficulty # bc that’s all I’d used. Thanks again!
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
| Game: | 10x1 17286-8 |
| Game stats: | 2/1/50%/1561 |
| Player Elo: | 1718.441 ▲ 2.345 |
| Elapsed: | 6:09 |
User: rbw--3
Message:
| 12/23 | 1:05 | 7x5 25744-12 | HotStreak | 5:04 | Won | 12.5% | 1903 | 1 | 8 |
User: Uberman
Message:
Good job bagging one of those in Hot Streak - all the more impressive when you're on the clock 👏
User: BrewCrewOldSkool
Message:
10x2 10996-12
first of five...sort of weak to post here, but yeah, first of five tries...
User: Ellie2
Message:
Wow, my best in awhile.
You Win. Game: 7x3 20587-5
Game stats: 121/1/0.8%/2001
Player Elo: 2320.539 ▲ 1.111.
I think that it is underrated.
User: Ellie2
Message:
Wow, this one was a very happy surprise:
Game: 6x4 3664-5
Game stats: 65/1/1.5%/2304
Player Elo: 2329.899 ▲ 3.788.
I wonder why it was worth more than 3 times as much as the 7x3 just above?
User: Ellie2
Message:
OM Gosh, 2 in a row:
Game: 6x4 11486-5
Game stats: 95/1/1.1%/2366
Player Elo: 2334.370 ▲ 4.471.
I guess that the 7x3, 2 above, must have been underrated.
User: TitanicTony
Message:
| Game: 9x3 20006-9; Game stats: 3/1/33.3%/1382; Player Elo: 2315.892 ▲ 0.037. | |
User: sebcbien2
Message:
| Game: | 8x0 1922-5 |
| Game stats: | 3/1/33.3%/1942 |
User: Ellie2
Message:
I had to redeal the cards several times for this one:
Game: 5x6 18187-5
Game stats: 4/1/25%/1903
Player Elo: 2332.536 ▲ 0.625.
User: TitanicTonys_deckofcards
Message:
What a workout!! No rest for the weary!
User: Ellie2
Message:
Game: 8x2 20162-6
Game stats: 3/1/33.3%/1784
Player Elo: 2334.056 ▲ 0.326.
User: TitanicTony
Message:
| Game: W9x2 28287-10;... Game stats: 2/1/50%/1619;... Player Elo: 2309.960 ▲ 0.147. | |
User: Ellie2
Message:
I got this one on my 1st try. It wasn't that difficult, imo:
Game: W4x10 17665-8
Game stats: 5/1/20%/1976
Player Elo: 2336.691 ▲ 0.899.
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
| Game: | 6x4 24009-5 |
| Game stats: | 57/1/1.8%/2282 |
| Player Elo: | 1726.860 ▲ 7.711 |
| Elapsed: | 7:02 |
User: sebcbien2
Message:
that's the right place and that's a very impressive win !
User: BrewCrewOldSkool
Message:
That's an exceedingly impressive solve.
User: Uberman
Message:
Very nice! Yes, best to take your time with these if you can. Apparently, patience is virtuous.
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Aw, thanks you guys ☺️ wow I feel so honored y’all said that, esp. since y’all are all so skilled.
I was happy for the elo as I’ve lost several so far. I try to post high payouts when I notice in case anyone wants to play and grab good elo. I usually blow it with tough ones. but you’re right Uber, going slow with these is the only way I manage em. A bit better after some practice but still lose a lot— they’re fun tho! Have been zoning out on them for hours so gonna get some rest.
Y’all have a good day and good play :)
User: Ellie2
Message:
BRAVO, Go,, 
!!! I hope to avoid being dealt games like that today.
Btw, in case you don't know, I'm one of those players who uses a deck of cards for difficult games.
User: outskirts
Message:
I once won a slurpee where the stat was 120/1 on my first try
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Thnx Ellie, After posting, I slept ages and forgot abt the comp. Hadn’t managed over 6 tho and when I stopped think I was back to 1, so prob wouldn't have made higher. Just saw you won with 9! Congrats! And to Uber and Jack with 8! :)
As for cards, I don’t do it but I don’t judge it. Some chess players set up practice boards for long games so they can better visualize moves against a competitor, which is similar. And as all are free to do the same I don’t take issue with it.
I don’t simply bc the main reason I play is to sharpen my ability to think on my toes, several steps ahead. But actually, I see how using a deck can help that too, so maybe it’s the working under pressure I like? (I often don’t do well under pressure irl)
Skirts, I forget what slurpees are on here but that’s v impressive! Congrats to you both. I continue to be amazed at the skill of many on this site 👏👏
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
OK. I will not post to this thread for most of the times. But this is an exception.
| Game: | 7x3 27701-7 |
| Game stats: | 24/1/4.2% |
| Player Elo: | n/a |
| Elapsed: | 7:49 |
It's from today's Spelunker. I suspected it was winnable but couldn't solve during the tourney. Seeing the unmasked stats after the tourney ended, it was indeed winnable and I wanted to be the first to win it.
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Good job Hop! That’s commitment. And rlly good time for a tough one.
Hey, I have a question now that I’m noticing game stats more often.
Is winning a previously unwon winnable something thats fairly reg on here or would it be a waste of time to check previous unwon games I’ve played?
I’ve played a few before where I lost from my poor set up or a tricky sequence, and it said it hadn’t been won, but then I wonder if I hadn’t made the mistake if it could’ve been.
And several times I forget to pause long enough to look at stats, so even on some winnable games I’ve lost, I’ve thought abt replaying. I still haven’t put a specific game # in to play yet, just take whatever comes, but I may try my hand at some games I’ve lost before. For my own lost ones I guess I’d just look through my personal rap sheet?
Is there an easy way to try unwinnables I haven’t played or is the best way just to notice when they come?
User: TNmountainman
Message:
That's a multi-part question, but here goes.......
Winning unwon games here is 'fairly' regular - because there are millions of games here, and as you've noticed, quite a few extremely talented and/or persistent players pounding on them. Probably a waste of time to go back and check - but that's personal preference for you. It's also personal preference as to *when* to bother posting such games. Most, I think, won't bother to post a game they've won which only made it 1/3, just for example. The 'theory' is, I guess, to post games that have defied solution for a while - but that interpretation is wide open and completely arbitrary. There are even those who've posted (winnable) games here which they have encountered and *not* won - just to point them out for those who want to 'chase' them. Again, just personal preference. No 'rules'.
The easiest way to 'chase' unwon winnables is go to the "Game Stats" page (right-hand border). Then pick some variant of interest, then click on a random climate/level (or pick level/climate 5). A database will load, altho it'll take several seconds, as that's a big query. Then, using the "Win %" column by clicking on it, you can order the games by winning percentage. Then you'll be able to 'track down' those with numerous/multiple plays, with 0 wins, but be able to tell by having an elo rating less then 4800 or so, as being actually winnable. I just did that, for example, on 'your' 6x4s, climate 5. Looks like game #30 might be the first one that matches that criteria, being currently 0/108. (!!!) Then #76 is 0/87, etc.
Alternatively.............you can just play variants which have a lot of un-won games, and you'll regularly stumble upon those which are winnable. Like 10x0s, for example. But you won't know which ones are winnable in advance - which I think is part of the fun and challenge of this site.
I personally don't try to chase such (known winnable) games, as I prefer playing 'the game' "organically", just as they come. But then I'm not an elo hunter/stalker, so......
Hope that clarifies your questions; if not, come back and ask for more help.
User: Ellie2
Message:
| Game: | 10x0 15029-5 |
| Game stats: | 21/1/4.8%/2125 |
| Player Elo: | 2280.463 ▲ 2.365. |
THAT will help my 'Elo' recovery effort, !...
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
This one took me a while but it may be how I played it.
Another technique may be much easier, but after my first loss trying it one way, I suspected if I made a few tweaks I may be able to win by that method. It was tricky, at least how I did it.
Had to restart around 20x to get it right (was part of a threat tourney, I completely ignored other games and just tried this one for a good while)
Am interested in if anyone else plays the way I did or if there are other ways. I started on the first 4 columns and only used those for set up.
7x3
Win % is 3.7% with 27 plays (I’m guessing most of those plays were me but idk how that works)
just played again and had to restart a few times again, here’s the stats after second win:
| Game: | 7x3 25802-11 |
| Game stats: | 31/2/6.5% |
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
GoAdoptADog!, looks like your game is attracting some attention. It is now 35-4. I played it once and lost and then decided that putting the black jack on the red queen in col 4 was the way to go because the black 8 was the key card to crack it open. I sped through the next attempt and lost and then played it a bit more carefully and won it.
User: ElGuapo
Message:
You're not messing with the game's rating at all, no worries there. Replays have no effect on ratings.
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Guap, good to know, thnx! That was only my second time to enter in a specific game #, but want to replay losses more often.
Doc, oh cool! I figured no one would bother since I’m not a champ here. It’s prob pretty easy for most of you, but I kept making some weird error. Look at you getting it in 3, with my 20ish attempts!
I played it same I think, or at least I began in col 4, but with some little mistake I kept making after so that even when I finally won and replayed, I did it a few more times before winning again.
I began like that on my first play and then after my loss, bc the board seemed set up to work for that starting move, I decided I only wanted to win with that start (this game rlly encourages OCD, lol) Gonna play again now and see what it was I kept screwing up after, think it was in col 2 or 3.
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
K, I played again and won, thank goodness, but only bc I played so much before. Spoiler alert ahead so if you don’t want game deets don’t look.
So each time I played yday, I began in Col 4, as mentioned, moving K to cell A. (There may be other ways but I liked this bc set up flowed like it should.)
Abt 5 moves after I ran into trouble. Many times I did what you mention Doc, where I didn’t move my Col 2 10,9,8 to Col 4 J only after I’d put J at cell B, moved 8 down, before putting back on Q as I should. I agree this was crucial and the deciding factor. But then it was 2 big mistakes I repeated.
First involved spades in cols 1 & 6, specifically the 3 & 4. Even when I’d remember to move up my spades, I’d gen forget the 4 bc I’d only recently moved it to Col 6.
Once I figured that out I had trouble with some diamonds, (apparently not a girls best friend here) where I’d forget to switch out my 5 & 6 diamonds (in same cols, 1 & 6) to the available 5, 6 of hearts and move up the diamonds.
The fact my win depended on 2 consecutive spades and 2 consecutive diamonds in the same 2 cols was cool tho and I think it was an elegant game set up. I liked the flow, which is prob why I wouldn’t change my start.
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
GAAD,
FWIW, I moved KH, 9C, JS to freecells right out of the gate, then 8C to 9H and JS back on top of QH. After that, it isn't too hard.
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Other than my flubs, it seems like we played the same attack. I’m flattered to have been at all similar to your game style, even if briefly :)
I’ve been playing 10x1s climate 11 much of day and have run into several other tricky ones. Am closing in on 100 for daily elo tho! Hooray!!!
User: GoAdoptADog!
Message:
Yay, I did it!
| 1 | GoAdoptADog! | 1805.992 | 1705.946 | 100.045 |