home play scores tournament instructions discussion problems about login account privacy

Subject: 12-Sum Streak Rankings

Date: Sat Nov 20 12:48:54 2021
User: ElGuapo
Message:
I'm not sure you're making the point you intended as far as which of those two records is "meaningless."

Date: Sat Nov 20 13:14:57 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Hmm. Ok. I thought it was pretty clear. And you've seen my argument numerous times previously. But, anyway.........since my "meaningless" comment followed Hop's discussion of winnables, and my comment previous to that included: "...there's still the issue of winnables streaks being essentially meaningless", it's the winnables streaks that are meaningless (except in freecell lite). And I thought my example was clear-cut, too. ALL winnables streaks 'suffer' from being incomparable to theoretically much-longer 'real' streaks. They are artificially longer - or the real ones are (likely) artificially lower, however one wants to look at it. And that's even beside the recently much-discussed issue of winnable games being easier just by knowing, a priori, that they're winnable. A significant portion of the challenge has been mitigated. I kinda thought we had gotten to a point a month or so ago where *almost* all had agreed that that was true. But that's just an additional factor. The overarching one is what I've discussed over and over again, including here in the first part of this post. FURTHER STILL...................knowing a game is winnable has almost certainly (and we don't have to look far for examples) further prompted those who like to just WIN at whatever cost (thus missing the "yang" as someone put it recently) to utilize the 'dark arts' of artificial aids. All that said..............................I'll again say that I'm glad those who prefer the winnables get enjoyment out of them. I'm not against that in any way. What's fun is fun, and one should do what they think is fun (as long as it doesn't impact others, of course (which cheating on this site does, however, if one is putting up 'artificial' numbers for self-aggrandizement)).

Date: Sat Nov 20 13:29:56 2021
User: cellmate
Message:
Streaks suck! The first 50 shouldn't even count because they're aided (made easier) ;) And everyone is playing a different set of games so how can a comparison be meaningful

Date: Sun Nov 21 08:14:53 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Hey, TN, if these winnable games are "SO EASY", why aren't they won more often?? I just won this one, of course using cards: You Win. ... Game #: 6x5 4297-9; ... Game stats: 71/17/23.94%! Wow, that's 54 losses! I always wonder if that is one frustrated player trying over & over again? Or, 54 different players? Or, maybe it came up in a tournament (where apparently losses don't count)? As an aside, it seems to me that the tournaments are making a lot of games look more difficult than they actually are??? AND, why are there still so many winnable games that have NEVER been won??? For me, winnable games are FAR more fun than being 1st in the SSC competition, 🙂!! I guess maybe the (obvious?) answer is that (most of?) the faster players (almost?) never use cards!? I guess that if playing the winnable variants is "freecell lite", then playing the winnable variants, AND using cards might be called "freecell double lite" (lol)!!? ... You can call it whatever you like -- I absolutely don't care!! Probably you still like to call it "cheating", even though Denny has said it is OK! "If you wanna take the time penalty to set up deal with a deck, so be it." (Wed Jun 9 11:22:51 2021).

Date: Sun Nov 21 08:59:07 2021
User: redberet
Message:
Think about how many id's were created to start a fresh streak. Unwinnables have been a part of life's fabric since Cain clonked Abel. There just aren't enough winnables to stock each variants level. So unwinnables are used as filler. Now nobody wants them, so how about creating an unwinnables portal where one can have an unlimited losing streak.

Date: Sun Nov 21 11:18:59 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Tony, where did I say any particular games were "SO EASY"? And yes, I'll still continue to call it cheating because it's giving you an artificial advantage over those who choose not to do that. It makes you appear better than you are, to be blunt. But you know that. It's a blatant, selfish (yes) disregard for the sensitivities and concerns of others. If it was just you who were involved...............then no problem. But since this site keeps stats, and comparisons are by default made (and you yourself have designed some of those rankings to make yourself appear like a superior player), it's raising your (perceived) level of play over others. It's not so much what you do.........but the total disregard for the sensitivities and cares of others that make your actions so 'unsavory', shall we kindly say.

Date: Sun Nov 21 11:50:03 2021
User: Uberman
Message:
cellmate said:- "The first 50 shouldn't even count because they're aided (made easier)" Wow, clearly I need to be trying harder with these 10-sum deals...

Date: Sun Nov 21 17:37:14 2021
User: d164280a
Message:
Tony, you crack me up. You quote Denny: "If you wanna take the time penalty to set up deal with a deck, so be it." When have you ever taken a time penalty? Wait for it, wait for it, never!!!! You use your deck , solve the game in an hour or more, and your total time shows 3 or 4min. Makes you look like the greatest solver even, not only do you solve a real toughie, you do it in record time. BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!!! I agree with TN, it"s still cheating. Normally I agree with TN on 90% of his posts, but on winnable streaks being "meaningless" I totally disagree. I'm playing a lot of 10x1w now to boost my ELO, and encounter numerous tough games that can take hours to solve. That's what I like, study the game till I find the correct path, then solve it. And since I'm not very fast, it takes relentless, unwavering pursuit to find the path. Take 12x0 for instance, I have a slightly higher solve percentage than you, yet my high streak is 51. I've been to 50 many times, yet there is always an unwinnable to stop me at 50. So the difference between my 51 and your 66 is pure luck. So your saying your luck in12x0 is meaningful, while my relentless effort in 10x1w is meaningless. Sorry, not buying it.

Date: Sun Nov 21 17:51:58 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:
OF COURSE my getting 66 straight winnable 12x0 games was luck. I have never claimed otherwise. (Although there were some very difficult solves therein.) I *guess* that qualifies as saying my luck is "meaningful". Respectfully, I fear you're missing my point about winnable streaks being (relatively) meaningless. Please address my reasoning; my exegesis. Of course I'm interested and open to hearing a logical rebuttal, if such exists.

Date: Sun Nov 21 21:44:52 2021
User: d164280
Message:
So I guess all 8x4 streaks, far and away the most widely played variant on this site, which are all winnable, are also meaningless. I understand your claim, 10x1 streaks cannot be compared to10x1w 1 on1, and I totally agree. The luck factor in 10x1 will always stop you, where in 10x1w only your own bonehead Merkle play will stop you. Two different flavors of the same variant. I have bad luck, many times over 20 in11x0 , over 400 in 11x1, only to be stopped by the evil unwinnable from making it to the top. Of course I am human, so it's not always the evil unwinnable that stops me, I have been known to shot myself in the foot, ouch!!!! I hate spending hours on a 10x1 only to find it's unwinnable, what a huge waste of time. With 10x1w many look unwinnable but I know my time won't be wasted, cause its there, I just need to find it. Like I said above two different flavors that can't be compared, yet I believe streaks in both are equally meaningful.

Date: Sun Nov 21 22:12:16 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:
I *thought* you had my point, but by the end of your post, I'm still not sure. Look again at the 10x1 example I used. The streak that "Honest" achieved 12+ years ago, 119, could well have been much longer than Hop's longer one in the "lite" format. That earlier streak very likely/possibly/probably ended after an encounter with an unwinnable. It could have stretched to 119,000, or whatever - far surpassing any achieved streak in the lite format. ANY AND ALL streaks in the lite universe carry the asterisk of being a pretender, for the simple fact that they're 'artificially' extended - relative to the historical database. Doesn't mean they're not worthy, or not excellent. Only that we can never know how they'd stack up against the other deadended streaks, had *those* had the same 'freedom'. The 8x4 streaks are not at all like that, as those have always been all winnable (with the current database). (However, we know they're also pretty much meaningless for another reason: many of the longest streaks were achieved with the use of a deck of cards, whiteboard, etc. But that's a different cause of meaningless.) The fact you didn't see the distinction vs. 8x4 makes me think you're still missing my point. It's not that the different 10x1 streaks simply can't be compared because of the "luck factor" - although that's the genesis of the difference. It's that we have no way of extrapolating how long those earlier streaks WOULD HAVE (or could have) been. I think my explanations are pretty clear - but one has to pay attention to the logic.

Date: Sun Nov 21 22:28:40 2021
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Further.........in your penultimate sentence........you note that when playing winnables, you know the answer is there; you just have to find it. That ipso facto makes it an easier game. When playing a regular 10x1 game, one often can't tell, without very deep study, if a game is winnable. Thus a decision needs to be made: how long am I gonna give this thing? It's a time investment decision. Its an extra layer of complexity. It can - and does - lead to false conclusions, one way or the other. Thus "wasting time", as you put it, and as we're all well aware. But that's an added difficulty. As I wrote in another thread a while back, that task is often harder than the solution itself. So.........*most* accept, I think, the the winnables are easier because they don't have that extra level/layer to sort out. But all that is beyond and separate from my main point of us having no way to extrapolate the older streaks. It would have been FABULOUS had Denny been able to make things all the same back at the beginning, but who could have known what directions this site was to take? But that's not the way it happened, so..........

Date: Sun Nov 21 22:59:55 2021
User: redberet
Message:
I had friend who was offered a promotion to management. I told him it was a bad idea, he wouldn't have union protection. He told me it wouldn't change him, that he was still going to be one of the fellas. I had to break the news that come Monday morning on that shop floor, he was in for a rude awakening. Exchange that clipboard for a deck of cards and you still have the same thing, you're no longer one of the fellas. He did end up getting fired, but that's another story about anger management.

Date: Mon Nov 22 00:24:25 2021
User: Klepp
Message:
I find this thread moderately interesting...I may indulge myself further into its contentions, and possibly even opine (though it is unlikely, Klepp is merely wasting time (as are most others))...

Date: Mon Nov 22 12:31:13 2021
User: TitanicTony
Message:
This is a silly discussion, imo! There are 84 regular variants, plus 10 (newer) "winnable" variants, for a total of 94 different variants. That's quite a variety from which to choose. They are all different. It is sort of like apples & oranges; some players like one, some players like another. There is no reason (or need) to make comparisons between different variants!!!! To call some variants "lite" is silly, imo! Certainly some are harder than others, but they are all equally valid. The all provide some enjoyment (or challenge, or relaxation, or whatever) to the persons playing them! I, for one, VERY much appreciate that the 10 "winnable" variants have been added to the site! I applaud those who did all of the extra work to expand the site to include the 10 winnable variants! AND, HURRAH Denny, 🙂!!!! For what VERY little it is worth, I think it would be fun to have a winnable version of all variants that are currently less than 100% winnable!! If that were to happen, I might even try playing W4x4 (lol)!!??

Date: Mon Nov 22 16:48:45 2021
User: Punster
Message:
I wish they at least had a winnable 12X0. I've played that one several times, but seem to get zapped by what looks like an "unwinnable" one. It's like playing Russian roulette, of sorts.

Date: Fri Nov 26 01:41:57 2021
User: Uberman
Message:
12-sum Current Standings
As of Fri, 26 Nov 2021 06:41:35 GMT

Rank	Player	4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0	Score
===	==============	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	=========
1	Goosey_Goosey_Gander		15	13	156	309	457	577	66	17	2,026,774
2	Dokmokm		14	15	27	52	29	96	104	20	449,418
3	Zonny	4	5	8	29	8	64	18	70	16	266,651
4	ix		3	9	30	135	183	116	3	41	186,183
5	Lindyhopper_Agame				153	1234	199	198	201	18	144,802
6	Punster			8	38	278	111	40	54	12	116,865
7	lauradoom			12	11	42	109	36	30	16	57,182
8	omnescient			11	25	56	10	34	18	22	37,855
9	gumbybros					306	306	306	33	26	13,931
10	circusoz				21	18	10	30	4	7	2,872
11	Uberman			22	82	86			153		1,377
12	Gulbis				4	102	1097	48			988
13	ListeningtoGod				17	1	57	5	1	8	585
14	huffy				12	6		80	16		303
15	JackK					331		359			71
16	wasjun					3979					12
17	stringlug					1206					10
18	d164280						595				9
19	jcb				165						7
20	gilbert10021								127		7
21	Julian									26	5

Username:		New user? Create a free account here
Password:		Note: username and password are case-sensitive

Rank	Player	4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0	Score
===	======================	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	=========
1	Uberman	2	6	23	83	125	581	504	154	20	3,346,468
2	Goosey_Goosey_Gander		16	20	157	315	458	578	40	21	2,237,829
3	Zonny	2	6	14	30	21	20	25	71	2	142,492
4	ix	2	4	12	32	136		118	36	42	140,866
5	Dokmokm		1	23	30	54	6	97	105	21	129,621
6	Punster			10	40	280	113	42	24	14	110,563
7	WRAC	1	3	11	20	36	20	33	25	6	103,989
8	Darkosi	2	6	20		100	4	55	87	10	62,492
9	omnescient			12	26	64	14	35	20	15	42,021
10	lauradoom			13	12	25	110	10	32	20	39,160
11	jimmyp		1	5	12	65	18	17	11	11	25,835
12	JackK						217	363	224	20	2,308
13	ListeningtoGod				14	6	5	10	7	5	1,075
14	gumbybros						308	308	4	27	860
15	circusoz					20	15	55	6	2	638
16	Gulbis					103	1099	104			456
17	wasjun					3993	185				90
18	Lindyhopper_Agame	3			158	29					84
19	stringlug					1278					10
20	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom					1262					10
21	d164280						629				9
22	gilbert10021								128		7
23	Julian									34	5
24	sdzcfo1			20							4

Rank	Player	4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0	Score
===	======================	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	=========
1	Uberman	2	12	24	84	125	581	504	155	20	4,315,584
2	Goosey_Goosey_Gander		16	23	157	323	458	578	55	11	2,071,013
3	WRAC	1	3	11	20	46	30	33	25	6	124,082
4	Punster			11	41	281	114	43	25	15	119,712
5	Zonny	2	7		32	22	21	26	72	15	81,623
6	lauradoom			14	12	20	112	12	34	20	40,734
7	omnescient			13	26	66	14	38	20	10	38,911
8	Dokmokm		2		31	54	7	97	106	21	37,622
9	circusoz				22	20	15	55	6	2	2,925
10	ix	2	4	12					36	45	574
11	Gulbis			35	5			125		18	442
12	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom					1460		185		32	404
13	ListeningtoGod				5	14	6		8	8	372
14	T1-T3						82	70	86		255
15	huffy				14	10		84	1		146
16	wasjun					4000	185				90
17	JackK						225	386			67
18	Lindyhopper_Agame				163	63					44
19	d164280						629		14		37
20	gumbybros								45	27	27
21	stringlug					1347					10

Rank	Player	4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0	Score
===	======================	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	=========
1	Goosey_Goosey_Gander		17	24	158	330	459	579	57	16	2,440,396
2	ix		5	13	33	137	184	122	55	45	680,309
3	Zonny	2	8	15	33	26	27	27	72	16	409,195
4	Punster			12	42	282	115	44	26	16	128,869
5	lauradoom			14	10	32	112	17	34	22	50,193
6	omnescient			13	27	72	18	38	22	12	47,320
7	Dokmokm		2	3	3	55	7	98	106	22	41,024
8	Uberman	3	12	24	84				155	21	8,812
9	gumbybros					310	310	310		28	2,791
10	Gulbis			35	5			145		18	455
11	ListeningtoGod				10	17	7	2	8		321
12	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom					1595		185		9	278
13	jsj41					4	16	42	18		254
14	huffy				16	10		84	1		152
15	Lindyhopper_Agame	1			164	92					77
16	JackK						225	386			67
17	wasjun					4007					12
18	stringlug					1444					10
19	gilbert10021								129		7
20	gilbertgame27171			37							5
21	Julian									35	5

Rank	Player	4x8	5x7	6x6	7x5	8x4	9x3	10x2	11x1	12x0	Score
===	======================	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	====	=========
1	strassenbeuge		15	65	130	1258	190	231	121	7	2,361,474
2	HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom			296	1091	2065	5000	208	97	5	1,612,005
3	ix	3	7	30	44	139	42	56	49	47	1,478,255
4	Goosey_Goosey_Gander		2	25	159	344	460	580	61	18	1,235,031
5	Uberman		5	26	87	140	583	505	157		377,446
6	Zonny	2	9	17	36	14	52	14	74	14	354,938
7	Punster			15	46	285	118	51	29	19	160,462
8	Dokmokm		7	2	14	66	12	99	108	23	123,240
9	WRAC			13	50	105	280	62	27	8	118,329
10	rws33315	2	2	6	17	12	19	9	36	21	70,008
11	omnescient			15	29	20	22	41	26	15	44,147
12	lauradoom			6	10	36	115	20	37	26	43,938
13	circusoz				23	27	30	65	65	3	9,638
14	gumbybros					312	312	312	1	29	4,481
15	Darkosi				2	120	51	91	96		3,434
16	Gulbis					109	1106	217			534
17	jsj41					10	50	20	16		380
18	Sixpack						6	38	69	10	352
19	ListeningtoGod				9	2	2	9	14	1	303
20	rbw--3				11	36	36	3			237
21	huffy				20	2		88	6		174
22	Lindyhopper_Agame	2			171	153					108
23	d164280						633		50		53
24	T1-T3							92	108		44
25	wasjun					4018					12
26	stringlug					1806					11
27	act							880			10