Subject: thoughts on Winnable Solitaire?

Date: Sat Feb 12 11:00:42 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
I'm doing some maintenance on Winnable Solitaire (link above) trying to fix some stability issues that have cropped up post-move. I gotta admit I haven't done much with that in recent years. It never seemed as fun as Freecell as it seems you can get pretty fair into a game and realize you've got an impossible situation. And while every deal is in theory winnable I was never good at spotting those problems earlier on. What do the Great Card Minds here think? MrFixit aka Denny

Date: Sat Feb 12 11:07:52 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Side note: streak ultimately is probably not a good way of rating winnable solitaire as there are so many games which get partway through and then become impossible. It might be a better fit for Elo or even just "win percentage". Actually I wouldn't mind eliminating that "turns into impossible game" thing but I never really figured out an easy algorithmic way to do that. MrFixit aka Denny

Date: Sat Feb 12 11:47:23 2022
User: JackK
Message:
I think of it as a fun escape, although I forget about it at times. There is luck involved, I think, but I am not that good at it, based on winning % and streaks.

Date: Sat Feb 12 12:13:53 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
change the rules to make it easier to win (worked to get us freecell). eg allow moving any card to an empty column

Date: Sat Feb 12 13:13:16 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
cellmate - I like it. I changed the way the stack rotates and added the "peek" feature to make it more winnable. Would moving any card to an open column help much? There's a tricky thing that arises when playing a hand where, at least for me, it's a sudden realization that a card I need is totally trapped. Is there a fairly easy algorithmic way to prevent that in the deal or to bail them our during play? Something that will work for average players, not just you super big brained cards people. MrFixit aka Denny

Date: Sat Feb 12 13:21:53 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
i'm not keen on streak as a measure of skill. its just an interesting stat as an analogy i think homeruns per season is more meaningful than consecutive games with a homerun there's 8180 level 5 games. i'd be more interested in how many of the 8180 the player has played and won.

Date: Sat Feb 12 13:27:35 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
yes. there's only 4 kings and if they're all facedown, the empty column stays empty. If any card, then you can move all the faceups from another column and faceup another card

Date: Sat Feb 12 13:27:55 2022
User: T1-T3
Message:
I play the game occasionally. I like Cellmate's idea regarding moving any card to a free column.

Date: Sat Feb 12 14:25:34 2022
User: harho
Message:
i usually play the 12x1 "winnable" I like the "winnable" as before that addition I had occasion on 13x0 having no moves at the deal. The only viable change/addition I would consider would be adding a redeal and limiting it to one or two

Date: Sat Feb 12 15:02:57 2022
User: DJT2020
Message:
I want you to know how much I love winnable solitaire. I hope we have it forever!!!

Date: Sat Feb 12 18:22:29 2022
User: Sudiebelle
Message:
I cannot get out of winnable and go back to regular!

Date: Sat Feb 12 19:36:52 2022
User: Sudiebelle
Message:
When I think I am out, it goes back to Winnable. HELP!!!

Date: Sun Feb 13 04:08:28 2022
User: Joy
Message:
Dear Denny, Having peek and count values is helpful. But still dealt 'MULTIPLE' 2-4 of single number buried (all 6s, both black Qs, No open spaces for Ks and no way to make open space, As buried under Ks, no black 4s). Solution(s): 1. Have a joker in deal cards or elsewhere to sub for stuck card; 2. Have 1 free cell space to unbury; 3. Allow un-do and re-do of foundation cards to tableau, helps in latter play; (but not multiples buried) 4. quicker play, deal one option version with rank scores or Allow 'undo' moves, including reverse deal. Have 'help, show me' button. ;) Thank you. :)

Date: Sun Feb 13 04:14:40 2022
User: Joy
Message:
Have "I'm not a computer, don't count this deal, remove from future use." And remove when your choice of '# of users' agree.

Date: Sun Feb 13 05:51:34 2022
User: JamaicaJoe
Message:
I'm with Joy on this one;. her "Allow 'undo' moves, including reverse deal & Have 'help, show me' button. ;)" is probably a good idea. Despite disappointments when loosing, changing the basic rules of the game may not teach me how to play. I often get in slumps and either need to realize my limitations or do some real thinking about how to become a better player. But in the end I am playing for fun so that's about where I leave it. My hat is off to all the great players on FREECELL. You are truly amazing.

Date: Sun Feb 13 08:50:38 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Joy - that was exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. I think I'll set things up and try that thing where the deal avoids burying both cards of the same color in the tableau. That plus cellmate's thing about moving anything to an open pile might nudge things into a more playable territory. Undo is still a bridge too far for something which attempts to be competitive because then anyone could be as good as they want to be. MrFixit aka Denny

Date: Sun Feb 13 13:06:31 2022
User: Ladycat2
Message:
Hello Denny, You do an amazing job here thanks for all you do to keep all of us Freecell players happy. But changing the game to much will take away the challenge of the game. Winnable keep please. But loosing is part of the game, make it to easy and no one will climb that latter to top stop. Keep up the good work and thanks again for making this site the most fun place.

Date: Sun Feb 13 13:07:56 2022
User: Ladycat2
Message:
Wow I can spell lol. Ladder not latter.

Date: Sun Feb 13 15:47:27 2022
User: Joy
Message:
Trick Play: The reason I mention: "Allow un-do and re-do of foundation cards to tableau, helps in latter play; (but not multiples buried)" is not because cards may have been moved up too early, but because if 'multiple suits' are 'out of play' being buried too deep, the foundation can be used like 'free cells' to uncover deeply buried cards. For example, I can reach an 8club for use if I up the clubs 1-7 first. But in one game, every suit had cards blocked counting up and down, even dealing in green with every deal card available. So even 'undo foundation' wouldn't work if 'EVERY' column on tableau had needed card(s) buried at start. Only because of 'peek' feature and thinking 5+ moves ahead could I see game is unwinnable from start, especially under normal play and not thinking so hard like in chess. I agree, Denny, starting with "where the deal avoids burying both cards of the same color in the tableau" is a good place to start. Thank you! :) [now how do i get my perfect score back?] ;/

Date: Sun Feb 13 16:02:53 2022
User: COTC
Message:
DennY: All I can say is I LOVE this game. For me the way it is is great.

Date: Sun Feb 13 16:11:55 2022
User: Ladycat2
Message:
Totally agree COTC.

Date: Sun Feb 13 18:29:08 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Btw clearly some of you get the difference between Winnable Solitaire and winnable flavors of Freecell. But I'm specifically asking about the sort of "normal" Klondike solitaire with tweaks to make it winnable. Some good thoughts. Maybe "keep it the same" wins but I add Elo-style scoring so it's not so much about streaks? Or maybe do the Joy/cellmate tweaks plus Elo, I dunno. MrFixit aka Denny

Date: Tue Feb 15 22:38:47 2022
User: Joy
Message:
omg! finally won this game after 4-5 tries using peek. only 12% won Congratulations! You Win Game: #3108-5 Game stats: 25901/3112/12.01% Elapsed: 47:52 Streak: n/a Don't know if could do again? I guess I'll try. Ok, Denny. I may understand better now. But what did you mean by "some of you get the difference between Winnable Solitaire and winnable flavors of Freecell"? No, I don't get it. I cannot keep a good streak :(, and have neglected my freecell down to zero play. Kudos to other players. WSolitaire is slow, not relaxing at all, and crushes my spirit by so many losses. Yet, I am now an addict trying to get a streak like freecell. What is it supposed to be like? And do you think huffy can get a large streak like on 10x6? Thank you!

Date: Wed Feb 16 00:38:23 2022
User: Joy
Message:
Ok. I tried it again and got it in less than half the time and with interruptions. Game: #3108-5 Game stats: 25902/3113/12.02% Elapsed: 28:36 Streak: n/a Tips to Win: Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler Tips to Win: Right side is key to clear. Buried black king spades and queen spades. Will run out of deal cards. AD in third column covered til end of game. First open space do red king before black king. (to)Uncover AH as soon as possible. Foundation almost empty at least first quarter to half of game. Hope that helps. Use peek! ;) Good Luck! Go slow! Takes time! Even on 6th try. Denny, I think I'm part computer. ;) I'm sure others did better than me. Tips on how you won, please? Thank you!

Date: Wed Feb 16 01:48:05 2022
User: Joy
Message:
Ok. Did 7th time since game open for win tips listed above. Thought I did in 5 min seemed so fast! But clock still says 22 min. Hmmm, maybe cuz I had left open. Now I gotta do again for real time. IMPORTANT TIP BELOW! Game: #3108-5 Game stats: 25903/3114/12.02% Elapsed: 22:11 Streak: n/a Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler IMPORTANT TIP: MUST USE NEW RED NINE FROM DEAL CARDS, 9D, ON FIRST OPEN SPACE RED KING, NOT 9H!!! ------------ WOULD HAVE FINISHED IN 6 MIN? BUT LOST ON 8TH TRY, AGAIN! MUST USE RED QUEEN, QD, FROM DEAL CARDS NOT TABLE QH. WAS HOW I LOST FIRST FEW GAMES AS WELL! Sorry You Lose Game: #3108-5 Game stats: 25904/3114/12.02% Elapsed: 22:15 Streak was: n/a -------------- OK. DID IN 8 MIN. Congratulations! You Win Game: #3108-5 Game stats: 25905/3115/12.02% Elapsed: 8:06 Streak: n/a TOOK LONGER CUZ BOTH RED QUEENS IN DEAL CARDS. Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler MUST USE RED JACK "NOT" ON TOP OF RED ACE. RED ACE MUST STAY BURIED. IF DON'T USE RED JACK ON RIGHT SIDE, WILL LOSE WITH BURIED CARDS AND RED QUEEN NOT USABLE. ------------------ There 5 min! Tips work! Happy Playing! :) Congratulations! You Win Game: #3108-5 Game stats: 25906/3116/12.03% Elapsed: 5:43 Streak: n/a DENNY, any comments, tips, etc? Thank you! :)

Date: Wed Feb 16 10:47:25 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
I recall some of those games being so damn hard, happy with a streak of fifty...maybe I need return to it (live streak I may have)...

Date: Wed Feb 16 10:54:18 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
staywellXY obviously knows EXACTLY what they're doing...

Date: Wed Feb 16 11:00:07 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
Wasn't there like a random variant where the cards DID NOT rotate through the pile...that was the toughest I recall from those games...happy with a win%>80 there, sure...that data lost possibly...

Date: Wed Feb 16 13:22:10 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Joy -- I'm going to use your suggestion about not burying two cards of same rank and color and cellmate's suggestion about moving any string to an open column and that should make things much more playable.

Date: Thu Feb 17 02:56:05 2022
User: Joy
Message:
Dear Denny, do you think anyone would be upset if you put all cards on auto-play once game won and all cards turned over on table and deal cards? Deal cards don't move. I often find myself waiting for them to move on own. I prefer to save my energy and watch the cards move up one-by-one. The joy of winning! ;) It's cool to watch. I'd like that to be the first change. :) Also, what do you think of ranking games by difficulty like with freecell? Games won by less than 20 or 10% most difficult, 70%+ won -least difficult. Gets harder more games played. Or give hint on game stats before play? Like: Only 10% could win this game. Ha! Good Luck! ;) :) Thank you!

Date: Thu Feb 17 16:49:38 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Joy - that's an age old controversy about difficulty. I *do* start the Winnable deals out a little easier and maybe I'll make that difficulty level stuff more visible. Or maybe not. But it's caused hours of consternation in Freecell as you hit the occasional tricky level 5. I can probably do autoplay now because I'm going to make all the cards of the stock accessible. Before you might want to keep something in the stock so your rotation wouldn't get screwed up. But your suggestion about not burying 2 of same rank and suit seems like the dealie for genuinely making the deals more solvable.

Date: Sat Feb 19 02:15:50 2022
User: Joy
Message:
UPDATE: WINNING STRATEGY Dear Denny, I found a new winning way to play that's quicker and more enjoyable. :) Even with multiple cards of same number and color buried in one game (10s, 8s, 2s, etc), I can now win in under 5 min with good streak to get on 'all time' board. I got tired of playing it like chess calculating the moves. So I tried to see if the game would tell me which cards to play. And using the peek function just a little and watching the stack rotation, it tells you which cards to play. But only can do this and win with peek, and moving cards in unusual ways at unusual times (like moving many cards of only one single suit to foundation, right away). I did whatever came up in deal cards, even if didn't make sense. So if it showed red 8, I unburied black 9 cuz all cards could be moved to do so. Still testing, so will keep you posted. Thank you very much! :)

Date: Sat Feb 19 02:28:55 2022
User: Joy
Message:
Klepp, I looked in several places and couldn't find a user with that name. So, what did you mean please by,"staywellXY obviously knows EXACTLY what they're doing"? Thank you.

Date: Sat Feb 19 03:33:08 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
Some person who used the name "staywell" with numbers to identify a particular streak...they had streaks of fifty, over and over and over again...all-time list...