Subject: Use ELO difficulty to select games - MrFIxit Denny
Date: Mon Feb 14 20:25:31 2022
User: Crunch
Message:Background
Stated game selection difficultly is 5 for the 1st 10, 6 for the 2nd 10, etc. I also understand that some of the games randomly might be rated a level higher than the others for that level. Ok, that sounds fair and is a good game design principle. Games too easy or too difficult will discourage a player. I would expect the ELO ratings to follow that principle, but that's not what's happening. I "believe" that the game level is selected 1st and the ELO rating comes second. This needs to be reversed so that a level 5 game is in keeping with the ELO evaluation difficulty. My comments are based on my tracking of about 300 9x2 games
Suggested Solution:
I suggest that ELO ratings could be used by the software to screen the game before it is presented to the user. The ELO ratings seem to be a great indicator of % wins for level of play. A more meaningful and smoother game difficultly level could be achieved using them since they correlate with the user's winning % game experience. However, now, more extremely difficult games get inserted at the level 5 games. My recommendations are derived mostly on 9x2 games.
Recommended Level-ELO selections:
Use the level number to select a pre-screened ELO table game.
5-1000, 6-1150, 7-1300, 8-1450, 9-1600, 10-1800., 11-1950 to 2000
Example: a level 5 game would range from 1000 to 1149.
Unwinnable games would never be selected nor games below 1000 in streak play.
My Experience
I really enjoy the 9x2's but have had my enthusiasm dampened by encountering 1800 games for my level 5 games, particularly for my 1st or 2nd game starting a streak. Also, I had a streak of 15 games killed with a game rated at 4038, 27368-6. It had no deduction points. For me, 1800+ games are extremely difficult with a winning result around 30%. The 1800's seem like a game level rated 10+. These will usually break my streak unless I've been playing high level games before hand. Also, I have to win about 20+ games to increase my total rating and erase the zinger game deduction. Not a great incentive. I suspect that WRAC would have some comments too as a regular player of 9x2's.
I think the ELO ratings are quite useful in understanding how one rates oneself and hope that these suggestions will help give a smoother play especially for generating new users to this great game.
Cheers Crunch
Date: Tue Feb 15 10:38:45 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:Some interesting ideas here. To be clear, nothing has changed in terms of how games are dealt since Elo started. Those 1800+ Elo games were always lurking in level 5, they just hadn't been rated. I can't imagine we would ever change the way games are served for regular streak play, but I do think there's room for a new flavor of streaking that uses ratings to serve games as you described, Crunch. We had a thread about it sometime back, we were calling it Ladders. I've also thought it would be interesting to occasionally present players with a challenge game or two as a reality check on their rating, drawing a game that has a rating comparable to the player's.
Date: Tue Feb 15 12:12:42 2022
User: WRAC
Message:This would be winnables on steroids. Not only would you know in advance that a game was winnable, but you'd have a rough idea of how difficult it was. (I can hear TN shrieking in horror.) I must admit, there are times when I wish I could select the (true) difficulty level, but that would defeat the spirit of the random element of cards.
Part of the challenge of 9x2 is you can get 4 or 5 easy deals in a row, lulling you into a false sense of mastery, only to be presented with a game that's 3/53 (or worse). So you have to take each game seriously. If you knew the Elo in advance, you could get away with being more careless. So while I'm not opposed to selecting games by difficulty, I don't think such games (like the HotStreak and Tournament games) should affect the player's rating.
9x2 presents some excellent opportunities to gain Elo points, especially at the higher levels, BUT you still have to win the tough games.
Finally, if you hate the idea of losing your streak to an unwinnable game, you can always play the winnables.
Date: Tue Feb 15 12:28:49 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:Right - what WRAC said. I thought about responding to Crunch, but figured there would be better voices. He(?) seems willing to do away with the great weather/climate 'mystery', which we all know IS PART OF THE GAME. If some other contest or listing was to be set up along those lines, then ok, that's a different matter - as per ElGuapo's comments. But Denny's not going to change the algorithm of the deals - unless I'm greatly mistaken.
I play a fair amount of 9x2 from time-to-time, so I'm more than familiar with the 3/53 scenario. In fact, a smelly friend of mine was fortunate enough to take down a 1/17 climate 8 game just yesterday.
To be honest..............I'm not sure I see how Crunch's suggestions aren't the same as the ad infinitum complaints/suggestions since time immemorial (see: andaronjim, et al) about why such-and-such game is in climate 6 (since it's a well-known 'fact' that they're easier than climate 5s) instead of climate 10, or whatever. As WRAC points out, "you have to take each game seriously". A significant part of the 'skill' of winning a series of games that are generally not too difficult is recognizing those aberrations.
Date: Tue Feb 15 12:56:21 2022
User: redberet
Message:I got 5 12x0-12 unwinnables in a row, how's that for a streak?
Date: Tue Feb 15 13:24:21 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
red 3651 is solvable
Date: Tue Feb 15 14:38:37 2022
User: Kaos
Message:cellmate, what is red 3651?
Date: Tue Feb 15 14:41:41 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:redberet lost 12x0 3651-12 and cellmate is saying that altho it was 0% it was in fact a winnable deal.
Date: Tue Feb 15 14:44:10 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:Oh and on the topic of Elo to select games, not gonna throw away 25 years of stats using the old "difficulty levels". And also Freecell without the bumps wouldn't be much fun, would it? And we won't ever expect to have solid Elo data on the lesser played variants. Finally someone would complain the xxxxx-xx was slightly too hard and they got an owiee. :-)
MrFixit
Date: Tue Feb 15 15:56:22 2022
User: redberet
Message:I guess I better be a little more careful with the quit button.
Date: Tue Feb 15 16:06:39 2022
User: redberet
Message:I just tried 3651 a couple more times. I just plain don't see it.
Date: Tue Feb 15 17:51:07 2022
User: WRAC
Message:red, send lots of clubs home!
Date: Tue Feb 15 17:56:46 2022
User: WRAC
Message:Hey MrFixit,
What happened to the Single Game Stats page? It doesn't appear to work anymore.
Link: 12x0 3651-12 Single Game Stats
Date: Tue Feb 15 18:00:43 2022
User: sebcbien2
Message:here there are
You Win
Game: 12x0 3651-12
Game stats: 10/4/40%
Date: Tue Feb 15 19:24:16 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:WRAC - I don't think I've used the view_one_game page in ages. Do I still have a link to it somewhere?
Date: Tue Feb 15 20:07:39 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:Ha! OK so the params to that page have changed. They've named params as opposed to the positional ones from the earlier version of the page. I didn't even think to look on the dialogs.
Date: Tue Feb 15 20:17:47 2022
User: WRAC
Message:Ah! Very interesting. I'd saved the page as a bookmark (which I've now updated). Thanks for the help/explanation, guys!
Date: Tue Feb 15 21:55:13 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
ha ha... "These are orange; there’ll be other colors later on" - George Carlin
Date: Tue Feb 15 22:04:55 2022
User: FreeMyCells
Message:I don't get to brag very much with this bunch, but got the 3651-12 on the 3rd try after Denny posted the challenge.
Date: Tue Feb 15 23:52:36 2022
User: redberet
Message:This is terrible. I've officially been designated baffled. I hope this doesn't mean I have to turn in my journeyman's card.
Date: Wed Feb 16 00:18:09 2022
User: smelborp
Message:I don't consider myself that good, and I got 12 x 0 3651-12 on second try.
Date: Wed Feb 16 09:33:28 2022
User: outskirts
Message:86/21 now, won on second try. Red I will give you a hint: ♣️ all the way
Okay someone already hinted that..
Date: Wed Feb 16 19:05:20 2022
User: Rocky1
Message:FINALLY won 12x0 3651 after multiple tries! Had to do it several more times just to be sure!
Date: Thu Feb 17 10:59:54 2022
User: redberet
Message:It's good to see the interest in one of my favorite variants. Although all those wins drove down my stock price, that's alright. Kudos to all who tried especially any who got it first try, cuz that's the name of the game.
Date: Thu Feb 17 16:09:34 2022
User: outskirts
Message:I just made up an acronym.
GIFT
got it first try
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