Subject: Zeros competition
Date: Wed Mar 16 18:01:14 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Just in case.
Zeros Current Standings
As of Wed, 16 Mar 2022 22:00:39 GMT
| Rank | | Player | 8x0 | 9x0 | 10x0 | 11x0 | 12x0 | 13x0 | Score
|
| === | | ====================== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | =========
|
| 1 | | Uberman | 1 | 2 | 4 | 16 | 30 | 65 | 1.036
|
| 2 | | kangaroo | 1 | 1 | 3 | 11 | 32 | 32 | 559
|
| 3 | | HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom | | | 5 | 10 | 17 | 51 | 245
|
| 4 | | redberet | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 19 | 2 | 167
|
| 5 | | TitanicTony | | | 7 | 4 | 6 | 29 | 122
|
| 6 | | sebcbien2 | | | 1 | 6 | 27 | 22 | 106
|
| 7 | | Zonny | | 1 | 1 | 3 | 6 | 51 | 100
|
| 8 | | snoverdavid | | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 22 | 62
|
| 9 | | Dokmokm | | | | 1 | 28 | 88 | 50
|
| 10 | | Klepp | | | | 1 | 11 | 24 | 28
|
| 11 | | strassenbeuge | | | | 18 | | 79 | 27
|
| 12 | | son-enz | | | | 4 | 3 | 20 | 27
|
| 13 | | HoldOnThere! | | | | 4 | 3 | 10 | 22
|
| 14 | | shanghaibob | | | | 1 | 6 | 24 | 22
|
| 15 | | milkman06 | | | | | 34 | 15 | 21
|
| 16 | | noneoftheabove | | | | 15 | 11 | | 15
|
| 17 | | javab | | | | 1 | 1 | 28 | 12
|
| 18 | | manatee | | | | | | 121 | 7
|
| 19 | | gumbybros | | | | | 34 | | 5
|
Date: Wed Mar 16 18:45:06 2022
User: redberet
Message:Hey Uberman, if you try for another 9, it might be worth your while.
Date: Thu Mar 24 03:45:51 2022
User: redberet
Message:I see rws33315 took out an 8, good for you. Good things happen to those who try.
Date: Sat Mar 26 04:24:30 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:El Guapo: "Hop, I agree it won't be hard to set the unwinnable games to 4000. First I need you or cellmate or MrFixit to work on masking game numbers for tournaments. Check the Jira board."
Today, I noticed that tournaments result page masks the game numbers. So can we go ahead now with setting those unwinnable games to 4000?
Date: Sat Mar 26 05:10:01 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Actually why set unwinnables to 4000? Why isn't set to a bigger value? Why are we so mean?
When I lose (2725) to an unwinnable rated at 4000, I still lose 0.005 points.
If lost:
New player rating: 2.724,995
New game rating: 4.000,005
How 'bout setting it to 1000000 (yes, a million)?
Date: Sat Mar 26 12:15:33 2022
User: Mobius
Message:Ist page of this thread, second post.
A chart of players and their zeros scores is listed.
But I cannot find a link in that post.
Can someone post a link for that chart?
Date: Sat Mar 26 14:02:27 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:If this link doesn't take you directly to the "Zeroes" list, then just click on "Zeroes" in the vertical menu.
Link: "joey's live scores"
Date: Sat Mar 26 14:54:52 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:Hop, here's the relevant piece from our email conversation a month ago:
We've been slowly moving to a model where we instead identify the actual unwinnables using cellmate's lists. Soon I hope we can speed that up, but it's a multi-step process and there's an order to it.
1. Fix tournament reporting so we don't ruin the fun of hunting winnable games once Elos become a giveaway about what's winnable and what isn't.
2. Add the Select field to my Elo Fiddle tool so I can much more quickly put overrated games back at an appropriate rating now that we know they're winnable.
3. Redefine the level average (initGameStats) as the average of just winnable games, meaning it excludes all games rated 4000 or more.
4. Using cellmate's lists, taking one game level at a time if we have to, set unwinnable games to a rating of 4000 (not 3999), even assigning ratings to unplayed games.
5. I manually correct any games rated 3999 or below based on a rule of thumb that assumes unbeaten games will be beaten once when played twice as many times as the current plays (treats an 0 for 30 game as a 1 for 60 game in other words).
...
8. Profit. [OK, that's an old internet joke.]
Date: Sat Mar 26 14:55:09 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:So we're partway through step 1, but still need to mask the tourney game selection board and the players' Recent History page. Step 2 is done. Step 3 can't be skipped. We could easily add a step 6 that tells the server if player loses to 4000-rated game not to exchange points at all, so the number itself doesn't mean anything.
Date: Sun Mar 27 10:39:53 2022
User: HoldOnThere!
Message:In the last post of page one of this thread there is a chart and I see myself listed...
But if I go to the zeros listings link given on this page ( https://hoppi.neocities.org/freecell/competition-scores-joey.html?inx=9 )... I don't find myself anywhere on those lists.
Are the lists only for daily play?
Is there an historical record somewhere, where I could keep track of my progress or lack of progress or see evidence of decrepitness closing in on cognitive functions?
Link: Huh...
Date: Sun Mar 27 10:42:16 2022
User: HoldOnThere!
Message:https://archive.ph/8CPHD/image
Date: Sun Mar 27 11:01:50 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:HoldOnThere! : "Are the lists only for daily play?"
That's a live standings page. And looks like you have currently two active streaks (You need at least three). If you click "i" icon in that page, there is an explanation for it.
Date: Sun Mar 27 13:54:13 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:"To be listed in the page one of the following should be satisfied:
User must have streaks at least in half of the variants.
User must have placed in a podium spot (the first three spots) taking the ties into account.
In other words all the colored spots are listed."
That's in general for the listings on that page. And since the "Zeroes" competition has 6 variants, that means you must have *active* streaks in 3 of them. For the 11-sums, for example, there are 8 variants, so one must have an active streak in at least 4 of them. And since you've (M.P.) not been actually playing (in the parlance of most here) here much yet, streaks "age off" after 2 weeks of no play in any variant.
Date: Mon Mar 28 00:20:25 2022
User: redberet
Message:Snagging another win on the 8-ball express is getting to be a habit with you roo.
Date: Mon Mar 28 01:18:32 2022
User: roo
Message:Thanks red. As usual I blew the chance of an early winnable 8x0 (13792), on my 29th game of this new set. I had it all worked out but managed to miscue when it counted! However 90 games later I got the jackpot with 29854, so 119 tries is easily my best of the three.
I've got my eye on Darkosi's record of 19 wins at 8x0, so only another 16 fortnights to draw level.
Date: Mon Mar 28 01:36:34 2022
User: redberet
Message:I drafted on you and got 15640. Had another one with two open columns but I misplayed the final steps. That don't matter, sooner are later they'll all be notches on the pistol grip.
Date: Mon Mar 28 03:14:26 2022
User: roo
Message:I just had a look - you have two wins in less than 100 plays. Pretty good!
Date: Tue Mar 29 17:18:05 2022
User: HoldOnThere!
Message:I just tried an 8x0, but it looked unwinnable... only one move, a black 3, and after that no moves.
It is difficult enough to do the mental gymnastics to go as far as you can to solve a solvable 8 x 0... but to waste your time on an appearing-playable but unwinnable game... that's a wretched thing to experience!!!... except you won't know if it is an unwinnable or not, even after you have made the effort.
Oh well, back to banging my head against the wall... but I won't know if it's a wall or a thicket I'm up against... so far the 8 x 0's all feel like re-enforced cement.
Date: Tue Mar 29 18:55:43 2022
User: roo
Message:Glad to see sebcbien2 got to 100 in 13x0 before hitting a hard, but winnable game. Congrats on doing that!
Date: Tue Mar 29 19:22:51 2022
User: redberet
Message:Getting a 100 to me is the standard for lucky thirteen. I once tried to get my 3 users id's over that mark at the same time. Once the first one went over then I had a fortnight to get the other two over, once I got them over, then it was pedal to the metal. They flamed out at 119, 123, 152 respectively. It's a fine line between letting a streak go stale or overplaying. It sure sucks losing at 99 I tell you. Glad it didn't happen to you seb.
Date: Wed Mar 30 04:28:29 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:ElGuapo: "So we're partway through step 1, but still need to mask the tourney game selection board and the players' Recent History page"
I have checked when playing Freakout that the Players' Recent History page now mask the tournament game information during the tournament.
So step 1 is completed now. What's next? step 3 or step 4?
Date: Wed Mar 30 13:01:52 2022
User: sebcbien2
Message:Thanks roo, i had a terrible moment yesterday, losing 3 winnable games in a row ( one with 2 open columns!) my mind was elsewhere, i'm not resisting enough to 'hey , one more'...
Date: Thu Mar 31 23:00:48 2022
User: HoldOnThere!
Message:Thanks for the help Hop and Kumquat and TNM... It's still confusing for me, and the 10's 9's and 8's are too tough.
It's like chess though... I read someone's comment about that recently.
I played chess over the decades. Postal chess in the 60s, tournaments in the 70s, in the 80s I was playing in German bars while sloshed, with my German-speaking Army buddies betting on me... thinking through the slosh is difficult...
The Freecell zeros games (10,9,8) require deeper thinking that is a little beyond what my brain is capable of.
One thing I noticed was that after an hour or two of non-productive headbanging on the zeros playground, tournaments seem easier.
Date: Fri Apr 1 02:20:22 2022
User: Uberman
Message:Zeros Current Standings
As of Fri, 01 Apr 2022 06:18:13 GMT
| Rank | | Player | 8x0 | 9x0 | 10x0 | 11x0 | 12x0 | 13x0 | Score
|
| === | | ====================== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | =========
|
| 1 | | redberet | 1 | 1 | 2 | 7 | 22 | 67 | 446
|
| 2 | | HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom | | | 3 | 11 | 18 | 52 | 214
|
| 3 | | Zonny | | 1 | 2 | 4 | 12 | 53 | 180
|
| 4 | | rws33315 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 59 | 179
|
| 5 | | sebcbien2 | | | 3 | 7 | 24 | 21 | 157
|
| 6 | | Uberman | | | | 17 | 28 | 66 | 127
|
| 7 | | snoverdavid | | 1 | 2 | 5 | 6 | 11 | 99
|
| 8 | | ix | | | | 8 | 27 | 33 | 83
|
| 9 | | TitanicTony | | | 1 | 3 | 11 | 33 | 70
|
| 10 | | Dokmokm | | | | 2 | 29 | 89 | 64
|
| 11 | | manatee | | | | 2 | 10 | 122 | 50
|
| 12 | | ThunderRoad | | | 2 | 4 | 2 | 10 | 37
|
| 13 | | HoldOnThere! | | | 1 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 27
|
| 14 | | javab | | | | 5 | 7 | 5 | 25
|
| 15 | | Punster | | | | | 30 | 26 | 24
|
| 16 | | Klepp | | | 1 | 8 | 20 | | 23
|
| 17 | | kangaroo | 1 | | 3 | 4 | 3 | | 22
|
| 18 | | rdking02 | | | | 3 | 3 | 14 | 22
|
| 19 | | Goosey_Goosey_Gander | | | | 3 | 5 | 2 | 13
|
| 20 | | shanghaibob | | | | 1 | 2 | 16 | 13
|
| 21 | | gumbybros | | | | | 35 | | 5
|
| 22 | | sweety | | 1 | | | | | 2
|
Link: Not sure how to directly link the Zeros stats, but whatevs
Date: Sat Apr 2 13:02:49 2022
User: HoldOnThere!
Message:Does playing winnable variants count toward streaks in the zeros competition?
Date: Sun Apr 3 03:54:32 2022
User: redberet
Message:Hey Hop, I was looking at Uberman's potential score. With neither an 8 or a 9 at the moment, there is a gain of a 100 more points for a 9 win than an 8. Should be the other way around.
Date: Sun Apr 3 04:23:57 2022
User: roo
Message:Maybe it's because the 9s are established statistically whereas the 8s are the new kid on the block!
Date: Sun Apr 3 05:11:53 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:I see this for Uberman (8x0 9x0 ... 13x0)
New score if won 674 534 366 342 340 338
Uberman has 1 in 8x0 so a win would give you a factor of 2 (log2(2+2) = 2), where he has no streak in 9x0 so a 9x0 win equals a multiplier of circa 1.57 (log2(2+1)).
Uberman's current score 337.
A 8x0 win: 337*2 = 674
A 9x0 win 337*log2(2+1) = 534
Looks good to me.
Date: Sun Apr 3 09:06:20 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Things have changed. Uberman now has 2 wins in 9x0 and lost his current streak of 1 in 8x0 but another 8x0 win would mean another personal best for him (also highest in the competion so far).
Date: Sun Apr 3 12:16:13 2022
User: redberet
Message:That thought didn't strike me until right after I had posted. What do you think roo, is that good strategy or is it more akin to driving without current registration. Sometimes I wish I had the wherewithal to sit on a streak and not go looking for a streak buster. Don't go try and use that extra column Hop uses on his 8's, Uberman.
Date: Sun Apr 3 13:30:05 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Uberman at 0 in 8x0 currently so there is no harm playing on until he wins, well, maybe at the cost of losing some ELO points unfairly.
Date: Sun Apr 3 15:20:49 2022
User: roo
Message:Well red, I think Uberman's strategy is the right one - for him - for now. Keeping his base (11,12,13s) intact while going all out for the sky. The 10s are an important link and getting to 4 was strategically sound, but I can see the day coming when it will require a 6 combined with a 3 for the 9s.
Date: Sun Apr 3 15:35:13 2022
User: redberet
Message:I agree. 10's have been brutal lately. I kept banging my head on 2.
With Uberman's new high, it's gonna take all that plus Pluto getting renamed a planet to take him out.
Date: Sun Apr 3 15:39:38 2022
User: redberet
Message:For posterities sake, in case Uberman doesn't want to wait for the weekly snapshot.
Zeros Current Standings
As of Sun, 03 Apr 2022 19:35:58 GMT
| Rank | | Player | 8x0 | 9x0 | 10x0 | 11x0 | 12x0 | 13x0 | Score
|
| === | | ====================== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | ==== | =========
|
| 1 | | Uberman | 1 | 2 | 4 | 18 | 29 | 66 | 1,068
|
| 2 | | redberet | 1 | 1 | 2 | 7 | 19 | 71 | 433
|
| 3 | | Zonny | | 1 | 2 | 16 | 12 | 54 | 292
|
| 4 | | HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom | | | 3 | 11 | 18 | 52 | 214
|
| 5 | | TitanicTony | | | 3 | 15 | 11 | 35 | 183
|
| 6 | | joeygray | | | | 21 | 14 | 34 | 94
|
| 7 | | kangaroo | 1 | 1 | 4 | 8 | 10 | | 77
|
| 8 | | rws33315 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | | 59 | 69
|
| 9 | | Dokmokm | | | | 2 | 29 | 89 | 64
|
| 10 | | manatee | | | | 3 | 12 | 122 | 61
|
| 11 | | snoverdavid | | 1 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 12 | 57
|
| 12 | | HoldOnThere! | | | 1 | 4 | 7 | 10 | 47
|
| 13 | | rdking02 | | | | 3 | 15 | 24 | 45
|
| 14 | | ThunderRoad | | | 2 | 4 | 2 | 10 | 37
|
| 15 | | sebcbien2 | | | 3 | 1 | 1 | 56 | 34
|
| 16 | | milkman06 | | | | 2 | 10 | 25 | 34
|
| 17 | | ix | | | | | 29 | 20 | 22
|
| 18 | | javab | | | | 5 | 1 | 14 | 18
|
| 19 | | Goosey_Goosey_Gander | | | | 3 | 8 | 2 | 15
|
| 20 | | shanghaibob | | | | 1 | 2 | 24 | 15
|
| 21 | | Klepp | | | 1 | | 1 | 40 | 14
|
| 22 | | gumbybros | | | | | 35 | | 5
|
| 23 | | Punster | | | | | 31 | | 5
|
| 24 | | d164280 | | | | 16 | | | 4
|
| 25 | | Epp | | 1 | | | | | 2
|
| 26 | | sweety | | 1 | | | | | 2
|
Date: Sun Apr 3 16:52:28 2022
User: Uberman
Message:For me I think the most important part of the base is the 11x0s, which probably sounds obvious. The 12x0s and 13x0s have their unwinnables, sure, but you can usually rack up a decent streak pretty quickly with those again regardless. The 10x0s aren't too bad as you know the streak's not going to be super long anyway, but getting near the top streaks in 11x0 always seem to be a struggle, as some no doubt found out yesterday in the SSC. I was lucky for this zeroes competition in that I already had a decent 11x0 streak running, but I feel like once that disappears it will be the hardest one of any of the variants to replenish.
It'd be nice to reach 3 in the 9x0s, but I feel like that's only going to happen incrementally ie. I don't think I could stomach the fight a la Buzzy in reaching 3 in a single day.
I'm really tempted to try and go for broke with 10x0s this week, but not sure yet!
Date: Sun Apr 3 17:02:41 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:You can easily build a strak of 5 in 10x0 in a single day or more if you are a little bit lucky. So there is some room for improvement there.
Date: Sun Apr 3 21:52:56 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:When is somebody going to beat the single winnable examples of 7x0-10 and 7x0-12? That's what I want to know......
Winning 5 10x0s in a row is namby-pamby stuff, with about a 3% (I think) chance of drawing 5 winnable ones of those in a row.
Date: Mon Apr 4 00:04:31 2022
User: roo
Message:Not if you're already on 4. Then it's 50%.
Date: Sun Apr 10 21:46:20 2022
User: roo
Message:That's the ton up red, as we say in Oz. I know you've done it before, but always nice to get another one.
Date: Sun Apr 10 22:23:32 2022
User: redberet
Message:I know roo, it's like the holy grail, one armed bandit all in one. I'm not ready to go down that rabbit hole but I will keep an active interest. Looks like I will have to draft after you 🦘.
Date: Mon Apr 11 04:58:10 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Wow, Uberman seems to set out to take it to the highs which are less and less probable if not impossible for others to climb.
Date: Tue Apr 12 12:28:24 2022
User: HoldOnThere!
Message:Well I thought I was just playing an 11 X 0, Normal, and lost.
But it counted against the streak I had in the Custom zeros competition.
Although I only had a schmear of 3 11 x 0, it was something.
So is any zeros game (from 8 to 13 ) I play in "Normal" mode going to count in the Custom mode zeros competition?
Date: Tue Apr 12 12:51:32 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:There is no "custom" zeroes competition. Hop didn't fully answer the intent of your question in that other thread, I don't think. Yes, he told you how to select custom games, but that is not some sort of separate competition.
Date: Tue Apr 12 16:00:08 2022
User: sebcbien2
Message:there are two kind of zeroes "competitions", the "live" and "yearly standing" (and many other ways, check Hop's site)
to compete the live one, you must maintain your streaks as high as possible for at least 3 zero variants
you can check your position here :
https://hoppi.neocities.org/freecell/competition-scores-joey.html?inx=9
to compete the yearly standing, try to do the highest streak as possible separately
https://hoppi.neocities.org/freecell/joeys/joeys-records.html
Date: Wed Apr 13 04:09:59 2022
User: redberet
Message:I've been playing the custom zero's competition and so far that is where my elo rating is headed.
Date: Thu Apr 14 16:16:36 2022
User: HoldOnThere!
Message:Thanks for the help.
I did notice the yearly standings board in my meandering stumblings.
Post follow-up