Subject: Zeros competition
Date: Sat Mar 12 20:30:35 2022
User: roo
Message:Uberman will lose that position soon red, until he wins another 8x0. I was pleased to win another 8x0 not too long after that teaser game on the 10th.
This competition has caused me to refocus on what's important and I finally got my highest all-time streak on 12x0 after 15 years or so when I passed 28. Good to get to 30.
Now to beat 10 in 11x0.
Date: Sat Mar 12 20:33:25 2022
User: roo
Message:Your update wasn't there when I started my post red. Good to see you and the milkman join me on 30 for 12x0.
Date: Sun Mar 13 08:01:39 2022
User: Uberman
Message:Well done on bagging another 8x0, roo! If I manage to get another winnable 13x0 next up, I guess I'll try and go for another 8x0, but something tells me I won't be getting it in under 40 games this time.
As for the 'posterity' red mentioned earlier, if you use the link Hop provided, then click on the Home icon in the top-left corner, then under the Streak header is 'Joey's weekly snapshots', which is where you can toggle all of the various themes using the Plus icon in the top-right. So, yeah, unless I can get another 8x0 and 9x0, that 800 won't register as they're due to expire. But thanks for recording it here nevertheless.
Just imagine, a streak of 2 in 8x0.....
Date: Sun Mar 13 08:14:29 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:"Just imagine, a streak of 2 in 8x0....."
Why not? We have 3 in 4x4.
4x4-5 has 483 winnable games and 8x0 has 765.
Date: Sun Mar 13 11:37:09 2022
User: redberet
Message:I remember ElGuapo proposing to elminate 8 and 9 for elo purposes. With that few available wins, anyone who wins it in streak deserves an 8. I would like to extend an invitation to ElGuapo to visit the 8x0 section in streak mode during his daily dirty dozen.
Date: Sun Mar 13 13:02:46 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Just to be clear, Uberman...............when I click on that "home" icon, I don't see anything entitled "Joey's Weekly Snapshots". I see something named "Joey's SSC Competition". Is that what you mean? When I click on that selection, it takes me to a *nearly* blank green page with "SSC" in the FAR upper left corner. Don't see any toggle choices; don't see any "plus" icon. Clicking on that "SSC" gives one the "Combined SSC Results" page. Seems like I used to have trouble with Hop's pages because of cookie issues, but I thought that got straightened out. But could that still be my problem?
Date: Sun Mar 13 13:07:11 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Hey K-o-C,
Does it make any difference if you click "Hop's scores" from the "Scores" page here?
Link: Scores
Date: Sun Mar 13 13:26:48 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Apparently not. I get the same page that clicking on the house icon gives me. A page "hoppi.neocities.org" with these links:
Friend Sites:
Joey's SSC competition
FreeAtLast's HotStreak ratings
cellmates's Website
Date: Sun Mar 13 13:41:12 2022
User: redberet
Message:The weekly snapshots don't include this competition. For now, it's cut and paste. At least from what I see. Is that what you mean KoC?
Date: Sun Mar 13 14:58:18 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Sorry - had to leave for a while and don't trust my phone to show me the same thing(s). Will return to this later.......
Date: Sun Mar 13 15:34:53 2022
User: redberet
Message:Not what I'm seeing. It only lists the winnables. I'm using Edge, but that shouldn't make a diff.
Date: Sun Mar 13 15:36:48 2022
User: sebcbien2
Message:on the top right, if you click on the + ?
Date: Sun Mar 13 18:04:48 2022
User: redberet
Message:Glory be. I didn't notice that. Thanks.
Date: Sun Mar 13 21:12:17 2022
User: redberet
Message:Went through 7 others before I got this. My lucky day.
Game: 8x0 17593-5
Game stats: 1/1/100%/2467
Player Elo: 2004.174 ▲ 7.521
Elapsed: 4:04
Date: Sun Mar 13 21:18:34 2022
User: roo
Message:Nice one red. Didn't harm your Elo much!
Date: Mon Mar 14 03:09:55 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Ok.............finally back to the computer............
Returning to Hops question above:
Date: Sun Mar 13 13:35:22 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:
Yes, but you don't see a blue menu bar with "Streak" in it?
....................yes, I do see that blue menu bar. And now I can (finally) see that it opens up a new list of menus by hovering the cursor over things. And I can find "Joey's weekly snapshots". I didn't realize that that blue bar was a menu. Just out of curiosity...........what's the purpose in needing to hover the cursor over those items to know they are "live" menus? Why not have them just 'there', and clickable? I'm sure there's some good reason, but that arrangement baffled me. I misunderstood the "under" part of Uberman's phrase "under the Streak header", not knowing there was more 'there'. In retrospect.................seems like I might have somehow discovered that, but obviously I didn't.
No offense, and your work has provided an immense amount of research capability........................but to us mere pedestrian players, it was SOOOO much easier when joey's updates were right here in the flow of discussion. At least that's how I see it. Altho I *truly* appreciate the power your site(s) bring, I guess I'm just a man of simple desires. Thank you for your patience with me................ :)
Date: Mon Mar 14 03:26:40 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:2 tiny suggestions, if I may............
1. Under/within the blue bar menu, one of the drop-down sub-menus you have "Archived" misspelled.
2. Going to that "Joey's weekly snapshots", that takes one to a page called "Winnables". There you have a sliding bar at the top that goes from 1--->14. Took me a short while to figure out that was weeks since "whenever" (13 Dec.). Maybe add a small "weeks" out to the left of that slider bar? And maybe a bonus for why Dec. 13 *is* week 1? But on the other hand..............those are the "freecell lite" games, so who cares? ;)
Date: Mon Mar 14 04:16:42 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:"I didn't realize that that blue bar was a menu."
Right below that blue bar there must be this line which reads:
"Select an option from the menu above"
You don't see it?
"what's the purpose in needing to hover the cursor over those items to know they are "live" menus?"
On the phone you cannot hover them but click as well.
"Why not have them just 'there', and clickable?"
Nowadays many sites display menus and you find your way starting from there. It was like so before but in an unorganized way. Now they are categorized in the menus (like competitions, score, ELO etc.). I thought it would be better that way.
"it was SOOOO much easier when joey's updates were right here in the flow of discussion."
But now you can easily jump to a specific day if you want. Here to find a specific date you would need to put some effort to locate a date.
"Under/within the blue bar menu, one of the drop-down sub-menus you have "Archived" misspelled"
Actually it was corrected. That means you see an old version and need to refresh that page (Try the link below).
"And maybe a bonus for why Dec. 13 *is* week 1?"
Actually it was the date I have completed coding that feature and that snapshot was taken manually for the test purpose. I chose to include it as well. All the following snapshots were taken by the batch program on my pc (scheduled to run on Fridays).
Link: https://hoppi.neocities.org
Date: Mon Mar 14 04:30:56 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Yes, now I see that line about selecting an option. My eyes were just immediately drawn to that list, which are clearly and obviously clickable choices. My fault for not looking more closely. I think it's natural, however, to jump to the obvious, while passing up the more "disguised".
I do agree that it's easier to go to different dates to see the results of the SSCs. I guess I just don't wonder about those much after they're finished, except a "running total" that joey also provided, as I recall. I think? Yes, there had to be that. And I don't even care about that as much since we have cheaters who've ruined that for the most part.
Still see "Archieved" instead of "Archived" - even from your link just above.
I don't have the computer skills to understand your methods, but trust your choices are good. I only try to provide feedback from the "hoi polloi". (Do you know that phrase/idiom? I think it might be Greek, so you may know it.) Sometimes those up close can "miss the forest for the trees". Not that you are - just giving feedback to help, not complain. Again, thank you for your patience and considered responses.
Date: Mon Mar 14 05:05:55 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Still see "Archieved" instead of "Archived" - even from your link just above.
Actually I corrected it but seems like I forgot to save correct copy and it is back again. I will correct it.
I do not know Greek though we have many Greek words in my language. And I do not that phrase.
Feedbacks are welcomed.
Date: Mon Mar 14 07:25:02 2022
User: redberet
Message:Date: Wed Oct 27 05:49:59 2021
User: redberet
Message:
Hey Hop, on your homepage under streak you show Archieved. The word is spelt Archived. But they are past achievements so maybe it's not misspelt.
Date: Mon Mar 14 07:39:56 2022
User: redberet
Message:I do have a question. What does expected value signify?
Date: Mon Mar 14 09:35:33 2022
User: ix
Message:red, that took me a while to understand and it was something hop said that cleared it up for me. suppose you are playing a casino game where the odds of winning are 99 percent and a win gets you a dollar but a loss costs you one hundred. if you play a few games you will probably win a few dollars but if you play millions you can "expect" to lose a dollar every one hundred games, so the expected value is minus one penny. it's about the average for large number of plays.
Date: Tue Mar 15 06:01:26 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:Congrats Uberman,
You have set a new record by losing about 15 ELO points:
Lost: 8x0 16315-5 2099.180 (-0.821) (0/1/2477.515)
Lost: 8x0 12524-5 2098.363 (-0.818) (0/1/2477.511)
Lost: 8x0 214-5 2097.549 (-0.814) (0/1/2477.507)
Lost: 8x0 6443-5 2096.738 (-0.811) (0/1/2477.504)
Lost: 8x0 21056-5 2095.931 (-0.807) (0/1/2477.500)
Lost: 8x0 18887-5 2095.137 (-0.793) (0/2/2480.005)
Lost: 8x0 831-5 2094.337 (-0.801) (0/1/2477.493)
Lost: 8x0 27389-5 2093.539 (-0.797) (0/1/2477.489)
Lost: 8x0 20484-5 2092.757 (-0.783) (0/3/2480.230)
Lost: 8x0 16393-5 2091.976 (-0.780) (0/2/2479.991)
Lost: 8x0 7684-5 2091.189 (-0.788) (0/1/2477.479)
Lost: 8x0 32760-5 2090.404 (-0.784) (0/1/2477.475)
Lost: 8x0 32376-5 2089.623 (-0.781) (0/1/2477.472)
Lost: 8x0 4520-5 2088.845 (-0.778) (0/1/2477.468)
Lost: 8x0 8766-5 2088.070 (-0.775) (0/1/2477.465)
Lost: 8x0 17881-5 2087.298 (-0.772) (0/1/2477.461)
Lost: 8x0 23705-5 2086.540 (-0.759) (0/2/2479.968)
Lost: 8x0 23333-5 2085.774 (-0.765) (0/2/2477.528)
Lost: 8x0 8265-5 2085.012 (-0.763) (0/1/2477.452)
Lost: 8x0 25631-5 2084.252 (-0.760) (0/1/2477.448)
Lost: 8x0 13557-5 2083.496 (-0.757) (0/1/2477.445)
Lost: 8x0 25064-5 2082.742 (-0.754) (0/1/2477.442)
Won: 8x0 27020-5 2089.991 (+7.249) (1/1/2469.439)
Lost: 9x0 7536-5 2088.863 (-1.128) (0/29/2404.945)
Lost: 9x0 8243-5 2087.826 (-1.036) (0/31/2420.805)
Lost: 9x0 23894-5 2086.293 (-1.533) (0/20/2339.408)
Lost: 9x0 11399-5 2084.827 (-1.466) (0/20/2347.318)
Lost: 9x0 5299-5 2083.053 (-1.774) (0/16/2304.745)
Lost: 9x0 32568-5 2081.497 (-1.556) (0/18/2331.423)
Lost: 9x0 24411-5 2079.951 (-1.546) (0/17/2331.312)
Lost: 9x0 16925-5 2078.904 (-1.047) (0/30/2409.878)
Seems like 8x0 games have around 2400 ELOs but that's appreantly too low if they are unwinnable. That's why I stay away from that variant.
Date: Tue Mar 15 07:43:55 2022
User: redberet
Message:Way to try and win one for the Gipper, Uberman!
Date: Tue Mar 15 08:50:21 2022
User: redberet
Message:Welcome back to Club 8 Uberman, me and roo were kind of lonely. Or should I say Section 8?
Date: Tue Mar 15 13:35:35 2022
User: Uberman
Message:Thanks guys, I'd braced myself for an all-dayer trying to bag an 8x0, but a winnable came along sooner than I expected. Fun game, too, even if it did take a while to make a move once two columns were open - there was no way I was taking any risks at that point! Congrats on your recent win also, red, getting one that quickly must've felt pretty sweet.
I'm wondering now whether to just go all out for a streak of 2 in 9x0 before Friday. The likes of roo and Buzzy seem to do this on a regular basis but I'm not sure how frustrating it's going to be...
Date: Tue Mar 15 15:57:41 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:Yep, 8x0 and 9x0 aren't played enough for me to have any confidence in the Elo level averages. (And outside of level 5 they basically aren't played at all for streaking.) There's tweaking I could do but I haven't bothered because we're moving toward rating unwinnable games away anyway. For now should I bump up all the 8x0 averages by like 100 points?
Date: Tue Mar 15 16:08:01 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:8x0-5 has only 765 winnable games (a small set). It shouldn't be that hard to set all the others (32003 of them) to a high ELO value like 4000, 5000 or whatever.
Date: Tue Mar 15 16:27:55 2022
User: roo
Message:Hop, how do you know how many level 5 8x0 winnable games there are? On 62 of them appear in the game stats.
Uberman - being dealt two consecutive winnable 9x0 games is a common occurrence but winning them is another matter. But I recommend you go for it because with an hour's solid play you'd probably nail it! Then again, statistically it's just as likely you will be dealt 50 consecutive losers.
redberet - yeah, Section 8 territory - I like it!
Date: Tue Mar 15 16:30:08 2022
User: roo
Message:Only 62 of them appear ...
Date: Tue Mar 15 18:02:41 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:Hop, I agree it won't be hard to set the unwinnable games to 4000. First I need you or cellmate or MrFixit to work on masking game numbers for tournaments. Check the Jira board.
Date: Wed Mar 16 01:02:12 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:I don't think I understand how it is related to masking game numbers for tournaments.
Date: Wed Mar 16 01:10:08 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:If we rate all unwinnables 4000, as we'll be doing once we get to that step, the game Elos will be a giveaway for tournament players. It would ruin the challenge of finding the remaining winnable games. We'll still show plays and wins, but not the game number or Elo.
Date: Wed Mar 16 02:17:39 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:How many tournament players are there to take advantage of it? Besides how often do you run into an 8x0 in a tournament and would you spend your time to understand if a 8x0 is really unwinnable?
Date: Wed Mar 16 05:09:30 2022
User: roo
Message:There are not any 8x0s, or as far as I'm aware, any 8-sums, in tournaments because the 8x0 (and 7x1) variant did not exist for streak play when the schedule was finalised about 12 years ago.
Maybe a new theme, say Section 8 could be developed for anyone who wants to bang their head on the wall for an hour!
Date: Wed Mar 16 07:41:25 2022
User: redberet
Message:Those two variants don't even show up in cumulative stats. 7 columns always give me the heeby jeebies. I didn't mind giving up a little each loss, but for someone like Hop or Tony it's downright forbidding.
Justice for Section 8er's.
Date: Wed Mar 16 08:04:01 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:red&roo,
Section 8 is already there but it's called 8-sum.
Also weekly snapshots include something called Yearly 8-sum upon a requesy by Uberman.
Link: Section 8 (aka 8-Sum)
Date: Wed Mar 16 08:33:48 2022
User: roo
Message:Sorry Hop, I was being ambiguous ... I meant a new type of tournament. Maybe 36 8-sums in 55 minutes with a few winnable games guaranteed but you don't know how many or from which variant!
Date: Wed Mar 16 09:01:42 2022
User: redberet
Message:Just in case, Hop. Section 8 is a term used for a military medical discharge. For those who have gone off the deep end. Which is definitely the 8-sums.
Date: Wed Mar 16 10:59:02 2022
User: redberet
Message:This is what stifles competition.
Game: 9x0 28443-5
Game stats: 23/0/0%/2375
Elo: 2003.570 ▼-0.853
Date: Wed Mar 16 12:19:27 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:"Section 8" is also a term for government-assisted housing in the U.S. Kind of has a bad rap, but almost certainly does more good than harm.
Link: Section 8 housing
Date: Wed Mar 16 15:46:09 2022
User: roo
Message:Congratulations on reaching 1000 Uberman. You did it the hard way - twice - in endurance (starting around 2am server time) and beating a 1/27 deal! I see you celebrated with an easy 13x0 which doesn't count.
3/16 9:59 13x0 12322-10 Winnable 1:40 Won 100% 811 33 33
3/16 9:54 9x0 29565-5 Streak 10:33 Won 7.1% 2074 2 28
3/16 9:44 9x0 26299-5 Streak 3:07 Won 47.8% 1655 11 23
3/16 8:16 9x0 4070-5 Streak 0:11 Lost 0% 2375 0 23
Date: Wed Mar 16 17:28:53 2022
User: WRAC
Message:Congrats, Uberman - very awesome!
Too bad it cost you 60 Elo points... although I suspect you feel it was well worth it.
Elo is getting more accurate, but it doesn't yet capture what I feel is obvious: you are currently the site's best streak player at the tough variants (roughly 10-sum and below).
For the record, that's not a knock against Hop, who isn't playing these variants in streak mode these days. He may or may not be your equal; I really don't have a feeling either way.
Date: Wed Mar 16 17:42:42 2022
User: Uberman
Message:Thanks roo, 'twas a bit of a slog, but finally got there with that testing 28/2 to seal the deal. At least the game stats in 9x0 are more well-rounded ie. each game seems to have been played around 20 times each, as opposed to the untrodden lands of 8x0 which leave you feeling slightly lost and lonely!
I see red's got a streak of 2 today as well, with a double-figure winning percentage - nicely done!
You're too kind, WRAC, but I'm not anywhere close to being in Hop's league! I'm sure if he wanted to concentrate on the 10-sums his win percentages would be sky high. Probably only CubicSprock would be able to rival him, I reckon. Yeah, the Elo hit was to be expected, but I figured if I stick to 10-sums it would correct itself sooner rather than later.
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