Subject: HotStreak "start over"
Date: Sat Sep 26 13:09:17 2020
User: outskirts
Message:Denny is a tech guy, but he is also multi-talented. I wouldn't bet on your bet. Artistic license.
Date: Sat Sep 26 14:58:30 2020
User: Denny
Message:The reason it's a bit tricky is almost every changes I've made has prompted a tremendous negative outcry. Last year when I changed the scores pages you woulda thought I was killing little puppy dogs.
And back in 1998 when I moved to a web page to display scores instead of just displaying them in Java app, OMG, dede could probably hear the wailing in Australia.
And Oded, that's exactly the reasoning I want people to have to do: is my current run my best or if I start over can I do better? Should I stay or say "hit me"?
That said I have listened to lots of feedback and incorporated suggestions.
Denny
Date: Sat Sep 26 15:04:42 2020
User: differentDay
Message:I've been watching the UCI Road Cycling Championships. Thursday & Friday were men's & women's time trials - found myself wondering how interesting it would be if those riders who crashed, suffered mechanical issues or felt seriously disappointed with their performance were able to go back and start again; woke to witness the podium ceremony on each occasion.
Date: Sat Sep 26 17:15:07 2020
User: Denny
Message:It's not quite the same. If you ran a good race and got 3rd, do you want to risk that 3rd place to try again to see if you can take 1st? You might come out worse off.
Yes, it does allow you to recover from a crash and it may encourage less cautious play because you know you can always try again. I think it adds an interesting element to the decision making process. It's like the different flavors of tournaments and how they affect the way you approach the match.
Denny
Date: Sat Sep 26 17:18:23 2020
User: Denny
Message:Witness what calico is doing. Yes, it's different from the one-and-done but it seems a bit more challenging because of the meta decision making, at least as far as you really good folks go. The rest of us schmoes, well it just saves from ourselves from that "oops that was a *red* 5" type mistakes.
Date: Sat Sep 26 17:27:10 2020
User: Oded789
Message:What calico is doing is taking more risks than usual in order to play faster. And it isn't helping his results all that much.
It's his decision to use this option, but most top players have been clear about not using it.
Did you even consider the softer replay version of "start over but the clock is ticking"?
Date: Sat Sep 26 18:07:56 2020
User: joeygray
Message:As for the score pages, I can say this: if I could use the old score pages rather than the new, I would every time. Technical reasons for why you had to do it aside, the score pages were not improved. I could elaborate but since that ship long since sailed I’ll say no more.
Date: Sat Sep 26 18:19:44 2020
User: Oded789
Message:That's actually one thing I don't fully agree with you about, Joey.
I like the option to choose the desired view, in a way as I like it on your SSC leaderboard. And it took Denny some time to settle on that.
Yes it could be further improved if one could save his favorite columns on personal preferences, but overall I think it's good.
A bit off-topic here.
Date: Sun Sep 27 00:54:40 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:Yeah, off-topic, but I think he was making the point that Denny's changes sometimes aren't really "better". And I agree with joey about the old score pages. They were quite a bit more user-friendly, if giving less onfo.
Date: Sun Sep 27 01:08:11 2020
User: joeygray
Message:More info. For one thing the ‘moves’ are gone now. For another, now you can fit so few columns per line, along with all that white space. Also fewer rows fit on the screen too. I dunno, are the pages Hop and I make too dense? I surely don’t think so. I like to see the data, not a lot of empty space.
Date: Sun Sep 27 03:22:08 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:Just speaking foy myself (duh)...........yes, I think I'd call your all's pages too "dense". As an example, just today, as I began playing the SSC, I again searched for the page that told me how many wins were involved last time the 13x0 was played. I eventually found it, but I bet it took me 8-9 page views, if not more. And of course that's gonna vary depending on what one's looking for, and who's doing the looking. But I continually have to figger that out each time I want to see that. But since I don't play much now, I'm a low-frequency seeker.
It's great to have all that data, but it does make some of the more common (??) queries less obvious. But again......that could just be me.
Worse(?).........since none of your all's pages work without allowing cookies..........I can't see any of them on my phone. But of course, as we've detailed earlier, I'm an outlier there, and am sure that's just the way it is.
Yet I also agree with Oded that if one could save one's preferred column views, that would help the new score pages.
But I still strongly favor the old score pages.
Date: Sun Sep 27 05:40:00 2020
User: joeygray
Message:I am not aware of any cookie requirement, for my pages or Hop's to my knowledge. Hmmm.
Anyways by dense I mean how much info there is on a page. Nothing to do with how easy it is to find a page. I'd fix that latter if I understood what the problem is, though. As far as I know all my SSC pages are reachable from my top page, links in the upper right corner; and Denny has kindly linked that page on the right side of the scores page. So from an empty browser (something *I* never have :)) whatever I have is four clicks away. I think Hop's is five, but mostly also four.
Date: Sun Sep 27 06:11:24 2020
User: TNmountainman
Message:I knew what you meant by "dense".
And to be more precise...........let me clarify the cookie issue. I actually can see your page(s) on my PC with a no-cookies-allowed browser. And Hop's, too. But neither on my phone. So it's something about the different system on my phone that doesn't allow those pages.
I do allow an exception for "freecell.net" on that (this) browser, but that's not sufficient to allow me to play with Denny's new configuration, so I have to go to my 'other' browser for that. And I wouldn't think that exception would allow me to see yours or Hop's page, as they are not considered (listed as) exceptions.
As a completely side issue...............I just looked at your page for today (Saturday), and it has a certain notorious competitor listed second. I was under the impression that only those who had taken the pledge were to be included in your listings. It's really no big deal to me, not being a serious player nowadays, but just wondering if I misunderstood the whole point of the pledge. I see the same thing on Hop's page, but of course he's a non-pledge player himself, so I didn't expect him to have that requirement. So I expected to see quite a divergent list, but they seem to be the same for "today". [Oh, I think I figured this out. Hop's page takes one to your page when one clicks on the links there. So apparently Hop doesn't run his own SSC listing.] [Sorry for my "denseness" - I gave up trying to keep up with all the development steps you all were going thru.]
Finally..........what does "SOD Idle" mean? I would guess that SOD means "streak of the day", but how is the idle time figured? Does the 3.95 yr idle time mean it had been almost 4 years since I'd last played a 13x0 SSC? (Sounds about right.)
The number of clicks needed to find what I was looking for depended, obviously, on me knowing the layouts of your and Hop's pages - and since I very rarely refer to them, I've never learned how to use them quickly. Each time it's a sort of semi-intuitive hunt-and-seek. Not your fault; just the nature of the complexity, volume, and denseness of the data there to show. I guess one could call that one of those "good problems" to have.
Date: Sun Sep 27 06:50:53 2020
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:TN,
SOD = Start Of Day
So "SOD Idle" means how long ago you played the variant at the SOD. I see "3.95y" for yourself so you last played it about 4 years ago.
Similarly "SOD streak" means what was your streak at the SOD, and "SOD plays" means you have played that many games in that variant at the SOD.
Date: Sun Sep 27 06:55:15 2020
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:TN,
Forgot to add. I have now an old phone to check my pages. Most of the pages are not working on it either. I have not found time to check why it is so but seems to me that it's not cookie related. It's probably because software on the phone is a bit outdated.
Date: Sun Sep 27 09:21:56 2020
User: joeygray
Message:It's the javascript. There have been many features added to javascript the last three or four years, and hop and I have been utterly cavalier about which ones we use - I tried to care a little at the beginning but then I just said screw it. I'm using my ipad 2 right at this moment, which came out in 2012, and its native browser (safari) can't even run Denny's pages anymore. My chrome browser can, thus here I am, but not my pages, and the latest chrome is not supported for this device. There's probably a chrome version I could get that would work, or some FF version, but figuring out which one is another "screw it".
Date: Sun Sep 27 10:07:51 2020
User: free@last
Message:When Denny gets the JSON working, I think I'll put in some kind of rating system (or convince Joey or Hop to). 😉
Date: Sun Sep 27 10:15:41 2020
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:free@last,
What do you have in your mind? I was planning to accumulate the winners. Who has won how many. And make a standing as such.
Date: Sun Sep 27 11:44:53 2020
User: free@last
Message:I was thinking more along the lines of ELO and adjusting for multiple tries.
Date: Sun Sep 27 12:10:24 2020
User: jimmyp
Message:I didn't realize calicokid was doing multiple replays (5 today so far, 8 (!) yesterday). That doesn't really seem fair, especially if he is playing toward the end of the day and can see where he ranks. I remember there was some discussion early on about whether to make it blind, but one of the lines of reasoning against it was that knowing the results wouldn't make a person play much (any?) differently.
Date: Sun Sep 27 12:19:13 2020
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:ELO part is OK but "adjusting for multiple tries" bit seems difficult to me. You need to go to personal pages for each player, right? I am planning something based on pure JSON data.
Date: Sun Sep 27 12:24:19 2020
User: free@last
Message:I assume the 'number if tries' will be with the JSON.
Date: Sun Sep 27 12:42:17 2020
User: joeygray
Message:Number of tries is, but how the user did on any but the last of the tries is gone by then. If that matters.
Date: Sun Sep 27 12:44:21 2020
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:OK.
{
"date": "20200926",
"game": "8x3 6",
"results": [
{ "name": "ValpoJim", "streak": 20, "elapsed": 1791, "plays": 20, "tries": 1 },
{ "name": "calicokid", "streak": 18, "elapsed": 1271, "plays": 37, "tries": 8 },
...
}
So what does 8 tries mean for ck? did he failed 7 times in 30 minutes? Excuse me I didn't follow the latest updates.
And how can it be used in the calculation?
Date: Sun Sep 27 13:14:35 2020
User: joeygray
Message:Looks like if you attempt to play a hot streak game after your time is up or after you lost one, you now get asked "do you wanna erase your last try and have another go?" If you say yes, then the only thing save from the previous try is an incremented try count. Then, your new try is just like your previous try(s).
Date: Sun Sep 27 13:17:20 2020
User: joeygray
Message:We don't have much to go on, calculation-wise. All you could do is apply some kind of penalty per try. Since Denny has implemented free retries maybe that's not appropriate either.
Date: Sun Sep 27 13:21:00 2020
User: joeygray
Message:Or you could just go full no-true-Scotsman, and not count people whose try count is greater than 1.
Date: Sun Sep 27 13:28:22 2020
User: free@last
Message:I just planned on discounting the result if tries > 1. How much, I do not yet know. (And now I see the JSON is available so I best get crackin'.)
Date: Sun Sep 27 13:58:45 2020
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:how about streak - log(tries) where log is "e" based?
For 1, log(1)=0 so it is simply equals to streak
Date: Sun Sep 27 14:41:33 2020
User: free@last
Message:I was thinking linear 10% reduction per extra try.
So 1 try, 100%.
2 tries 90%.
3 tries 80%.
Etc.
Date: Sun Sep 27 14:52:47 2020
User: redberet
Message:3 hours into today calicokid had 10 tries. You'd think that at least you'd have to wait that full half hour before your next try.
Date: Sun Sep 27 14:57:34 2020
User: joeygray
Message:Nope. Win fast, lose faster. With retries its just like tournament.
Date: Sun Sep 27 15:10:32 2020
User: redberet
Message:I don't know if that is what Denny had in mind. Another venue where the rich get richer.
Date: Sun Sep 27 15:41:26 2020
User: ix
Message:right now, more than half today's players have tried more than once (15/26), could it be that if hotstreak were made deadly they might speak up that they liked it retriable?
Date: Sun Sep 27 18:18:45 2020
User: jfcincy
Message:I like playing hot streak because it introduces me to another variant of freecell. How about a "variant" of the day, and then one chance at the "Hot Streak." What I find hard about the hot streak is that I don't know the variant before I start playing and I don't like a game with a O% win history in the games.
Date: Sun Sep 27 18:32:22 2020
User: free@last
Message:I'm going to pass any rating to Hop/Joey as I've got too much other stuff on my plate right now. :)
Date: Sun Sep 27 21:10:03 2020
User: FreeMyCells
Message:If all somebody has to do is sit around and play freecell all day, let em try as much as they want. If that's all they have to live for, then let them live it up to their hearts content. I tried the hotstreak thing just one day, but I usually just like playing a game here and there. I feel fortunate I have other things going on in my life.
Date: Sun Sep 27 21:47:40 2020
User: ix
Message:>> If that's all they have to live for, then let them live it up to their hearts content.
i feel the same way about people who hike a lot
Date: Sun Sep 27 22:36:05 2020
User: WRAC
Message:Having tried the replay option, I don't think it's the terrible thing that some others seem to believe. Just different. It adds an interesting element of strategy (is it worth wiping out a good streak to get a better one?), but it rewards less cautious play for those with the time and energy to make multiple attempts.
I already know I'm (much) slower than calico and jimmyp, and that's not going to change. So I see it mainly as a competition against myself, and either rule (replays allowed or not) presents an interesting challenge.
Date: Mon Sep 28 08:34:27 2020
User: jimmyp
Message:One of the appealing things about the HotStreak is that I can commit 30 minutes and be done. I generally shy away from the majors because I don't want to spend two hours straight playing. Though I can see the excitement of two players nearing the end of the day and trying to one-up each other, I think it's more likely that it's one player getting unlimited tries knowing what he needs to achieve. 18 tries? C'mon, that's not getting a bit of bad luck and just wanting to play.
WRAC, yesterday's game wasn't about speed. 8 wins was the most anyone got on the first try. As a solver, you had the advantage over the speedsters.
Back in the day (don't worry, a "get off my lawn" is coming any second), when there were tournament ratings, there was a rule that if a player won only one game, his score wouldn't count for ratings. This seemed like a good rule, it let a player come in and play one game for fun halfway through a tournament, or if something came up early and he had to leave, he didn't have to worry about tanking his ranking. But one player was notorious for starting a tournament, winning a game, perhaps starting the next, then bailing if he was behind. While legal under the rules, this seemed so against the spirit of the freecell and it really infuriated me, enough to call out this person on the discussion board. I'm thinking that 18 replays (well, 17 replays plus one original try) is close to this.
Date: Mon Sep 28 09:50:36 2020
User: WRAC
Message:jimmyp wrote: "WRAC, yesterday's game wasn't about speed. 8 wins was the most anyone got on the first try. As a solver, you had the advantage over the speedsters."
I think we have the same view here: One attempt allowed favors solvers; multiple attempts favors speedsters.
Case in point: With 5 attempts, I was able to win 12 games in 29:42, which I figured was about as well as I was going to do. On the other hand, calico won 13 games in 21:01, leaving a wide margin for improvement. With enough tries, 20 wins were not out of the question.
So yes, in the harder variants, I would - on average - expect to do better against the field with only one try allowed. But like I said, I'm more interested in the competition with myself, which is why I don't mind having replays allowed. And again, replays-not-allowed is also an interesting competition that I enjoyed while it was in force. To me, it's apples vs. oranges, not apples vs. toxic mushrooms. Either rule is fine with me.
Finally, in defense of calico, what he did was entirely within the spirit of competition - Denny actively encouraged him (and others) to play this way. In the tournament situation you mentioned, we (the ratings crew) made a rule for one purpose and then found it being used for an entirely different purpose. Different beast.
Date: Mon Sep 28 10:05:34 2020
User: jimmyp
Message:So WRAC, what I take from this is that you think it's Denny's fault. Makes sense to me. Seems like every bad thing on this site is somehow related to Denny!
Date: Mon Sep 28 14:55:39 2020
User: calicokid
Message:I told myself I wasn't going to weigh in here because, honestly, I didn't see the point. Denny changed the rules allowing multiple plays, and I am going to play within those rules. Many of you have decided that you should only get one try, and that's it. While I understand the reasoning behind that, I didn't agree to that; I agreed to play within the parameters that Denny put forward. I didn't think it would set off a firestorm. I'm here to have fun, and challenge myself, and get better. That's it.
When the Hot Streak first started I, played under multiple nicks one time. Oded pointed out that that defeated the spirit of the competition, and I agreed, and vowed not to do it again. The reason I agreed was that it would be bogus for me to crowd out the top spaces by using multiple nicks to achieve that feat.
When I started playing tournaments years ago I was terrible, there is no other way to describe it. But I picked a couple of top players to "target" in hopes of one day being competitive with them. Now, I've NEVER called myself a top player, that is something others have done. I was here when the TOP players still played, and I got my a** handed to me on a daily basis. I like to think of myself as one of the better players that is still here.
A question I have is if I was "losing" these Hot Streak competitions instead of "winning" them, would anybody care? You guys are more than welcome to ignore what it is that I'm doing, and wag your fingers, but until the rules change, I don't plan on stopping. Now if someone is going to make a ratings page just like in the old days, then my habits will most likely change.
For the record, I like the way the competition was before. But being able to make multiple attempts in the harder variations is appealing to me. I also apparently don't have anything else to live for :O
Date: Mon Sep 28 16:57:18 2020
User: free@last
Message:As I mentioned (here or another thread) I was going to set up a rating for Hot Streak that would penalize multiple attempts. (I was thinking 10% per extra attempt, so if you had a streak of 30 after 3 tries, it would count as 24 for ratings purposes.) This would allow for the "ah, bad luck, got an unwinnable early" to be somewhat redeemed. Of course, people can choose to ignore the ratings and try as many times as they like. Or participate in the ratings and really weigh whether another attempt is a good idea.
Alas, my plate is overflowing with other projects. I think joey is working on something but what exactly, I do not know.
Date: Mon Sep 28 17:02:10 2020
User: jimmyp
Message:Hey, man, sorry to give you a hard time. I don't think anyone would care if you were losing the competitions, but then again, no one would really notice. It's hard to ignore when your name is at the top and on the front page. I'm trying to win, but unless I am willing to play at 11 pm and spend 2 hours a day on a 30 minute competition, I'm at a distinct disadvantage (in addition to being a tad slower than you these days), and it just doesn't seem fair. And 18 tries is technically "multiple" but I'd call it "many".
We're still feeling our way around a new competition so there are going to be growing pains. I don't want to create a stressful situation here. I loved it when there were tournament ratings but also felt a bit relieved when they stopped as it made it a more relaxed atmosphere again.
btw, I tried to make a statement by logging in under an alternate nickname. I was able to play a game in the British Open but when I clicked on HotStreak, the timer started but no cards ever appeared. Maybe I'm pre-banned.
Date: Mon Sep 28 18:04:59 2020
User: joeygray
Message:I have no problem whatever with your playing by the rules as given. You go kid!
I did like the rules better as they were at first. The biggest downside with the SSC and WWC was always the big advantage it gave to folks who could devote a lot more time than others. Here, I thought when the Hotstreak first appeared, is that problem being addressed. You clear a half hour in your day - everybody ought to be able to do that - and give it your all for that time, and then, done with it. Any half hour! I loved the concept. Anybody who’s got more time, there’s plenty of streaks to build or tournaments to play, but the hotstreak put folks on an equal footing.
Date: Mon Sep 28 18:34:14 2020
User: Oded789
Message:Yeah that's the main issue here.
And the free multiple tries ruin that.
Thing is, there was actually a poll made by free regarding this new competition.
Why was it so hard for Denny to put one up with:
A) No replays allowed
B) Replays within your 30 minutes (clock is running)
C) Free replays
Or something like that, before making such a radical change to the new game without any prior notice?
Date: Mon Sep 28 18:50:21 2020
User: Oded789
Message:FWIW, and in spite of my vow above, if I happen to get an unwinnable early on today I will make an exception.
My view of non-winnable zero freecell games in competitions where players don't get the same games isn't exactly a secret.
Date: Mon Sep 28 19:43:53 2020
User: joeygray
Message:Denny listens to us, a lot; don’t forget.
Sometimes, he does what he wants. I’m like that too, as you know. 😁
Date: Mon Sep 28 21:38:28 2020
User: Denny
Message:That thing about being able to play at 11:30pm east coast US is valid. One thing I like about HotStreak was, unlike tournaments, you could play at your leisure, but since there's some strategic advantage to being able to do that last slot, I dunno. Maybe I'll go back to deadlies.
As far as breaking into leagues I'm having a hard time figuring out how to rank players so that folks don't sandbag and cheat.
Denny
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