Subject: Elo coming soon
Date: Fri Dec 31 13:42:45 2021
User: MrFixit
Message:I've got a line in the win/lose popups now about "Elo coming soon". We've been running batch Elo for the last year and I'm trying to get it integrated more tightly so you see it after each play.
Read more about the Elo system by going to Scores and then in the right column clicking on Elo Ratings.
Link: About Elo
Date: Fri Dec 31 14:42:52 2021
User: berries
Message:Thanks. Now, does this mean we get to start over with a new handle? Or do we have to just keep on with, say, 15,000 games on our record?
Date: Fri Dec 31 15:01:13 2021
User: WRAC
Message:berries, Elo ratings are heavily weighted toward recent play, so what you did 10,000 games ago has basically no effect. No need to start over!
Of course, you might still *want* to start over...
Date: Fri Dec 31 15:25:40 2021
User: ElGuapo
Message:WRAC's right, the only inputs to your Elo rating are the previous rating (whether obtained after 15,000 plays or none) and the delta from the game you just won or lost. There's no averaging involved.
The best analogy I can give for what's going on is that your Elo rating is like the temperature on a thermometer in water. If the temperature of the water changes the thermometer adjusts.
Date: Fri Dec 31 17:09:40 2021
User: gwendolyn
Message:Did you notice there are no words from our sponsors? Blank space.
Date: Fri Dec 31 17:35:19 2021
User: berries
Message:Just curious, what, exactly, does "recent" entail?
Date: Fri Dec 31 17:42:20 2021
User: redberet
Message:I just played a game and the link to game stats showed a 2263 elo, but in recent games played it shows the proper 1824. It was a 12x0 with a 2/2 record.
Date: Fri Dec 31 17:46:03 2021
User: rws33315
Message:ElGuapo
Nice analogy , Thanks!
Date: Fri Dec 31 17:54:25 2021
User: nancylou
Message:I have also noticed the bright green in the message box.
Date: Fri Dec 31 20:56:47 2021
User: rarefruit
Message:what the eff does "elo" mean?
Date: Sat Jan 1 03:38:46 2022
User: Gulbis
Message:rarefruit, click the link in the first post, you can read all about Elo there.
Denny, since you are tinkering with the pop-ups, can you please make it so that the message of the fortnight disappears when you click the space bar?
And also, might I inquire after the Elos for unwinnable games? Is there a plan to fix them or will it stay as-is?
Date: Sat Jan 1 07:14:09 2022
User: JonnieBoy
Message:> can you please make it so that the message of the fortnight disappears when you click the space bar?
Or when you hit the Return key
Date: Sat Jan 1 10:26:12 2022
User: SAB
Message:The game stats look a bit odd to me:
Game stats: 248/0/0%/3977
Date: Sat Jan 1 10:47:35 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:SAB - what's the oddness exactly?
Date: Sat Jan 1 11:48:27 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:JohnnyBoy - Ctrl-F5 and it should close with spacebar, at least it does in Chrome.
Date: Sat Jan 1 12:10:03 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:another 12x0 doesn't look correct:
Game: 12x0 21396-5
Game stats: 31/29/93.5%/1166
Elo: 1928.261 ▲ 0.098
Date: Sat Jan 1 12:32:01 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:Gulbis, I've been working with help from cellmate to fix unwinnables one game level at a time. There's more we could do with Denny's help I'm sure, but tournaments would need an update first. I have a work item out there for Denny on this when it gets to the top of the priority list.
SAB and rbw--3, I likewise don't know what looks odd or incorrect about those. Can you elaborate?
Date: Sat Jan 1 13:37:59 2022
User: SAB
Message:Mr Fixit - What does 3997 mean?
Happy New Year
SAB
Date: Sat Jan 1 13:40:30 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:Very high Elo
Link: About Elo
Date: Sat Jan 1 15:15:47 2022
User: Gulbis
Message:ElGuapo, thank you for the update. I did notice that I didn't lose any points when I lost an unwinnable 10x2 game and I appreciated that. The 10x1 games are still a mess, though, and I would love to play 12x0's again. But anyway. I know it's not an easy fix and I'm happy to hear that there's an action item for tournaments.
Date: Sat Jan 1 15:20:55 2022
User: Gulbis
Message:And the space bar works now! Wow, that was quick. Thanks!
Date: Sat Jan 1 22:56:32 2022
User: rarefruit
Message:i should have been clearer. I looked at the link in the first post in this thread before asking what elo means. i'd like to know what the acronym elo stands for. i'm assuming it's an acronym though. if it is, what does elo stand for?
Date: Sat Jan 1 23:14:07 2022
User: kangaroo
Message:ELO the acronym stands for the great rock group Electric Light Orchestra.
Elo the number is named after its inventor, Mr Elo! (thanks ElGuapo for the reminder of that in another thread.)
Date: Sun Jan 2 08:53:38 2022
User: berries
Message:Looking at games stats, I see several "only several hundred" played. Does that mean Elo is starting from scratch?
Date: Sun Jan 2 10:00:14 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:Scores page on the right has an Elo info link. We started tracking Elo in 2020. Only now getting it into win/lose dialogs.
Date: Sun Jan 2 10:56:14 2022
User: free@last
Message:Why are you going to show a game ELO when even ElGuapo says the point of ELO is not the game rating but the player rating?
Sure this is all fine in 8*4 but almost all the other variants, you are playing against the average ELO of the variant, not against a game ELO. Are you going to show the average ELO?
Date: Sun Jan 2 11:11:57 2022
User: free@last
Message:Nevermind. I see you are showing player ELO.
Date: Sun Jan 2 11:51:25 2022
User: JonnieBoy
Message:> And the space bar works now! Wow, that was quick. Thanks!
Ditto the Return key, double thanks! (I use Edge on Windows; by convention, the default active button of a Windows dialog should operate on pressing return, IMVHO).
Date: Sun Jan 2 15:02:30 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
Something odd...
Game Elo doesn't seem right. In the You Win it says 658, but click to get gamestats shows 672
Game: 13x1 5164-8
Game stats: 6/6/100%/658
Elo: 1686.659 ▲ 0.021
Game: 5164 13x1-8
Plays: 6
Wins: 6
Percentage: 100.00
Elo: 672
Date: Sun Jan 2 15:24:22 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:Hmmm... yeah, that's a result of this "boost" factor that's applied across an entire variant/difficulty level. Lemme confer with ElGuapo about what we should display. He cooked up the "boost" concept so I'll blame it on him!
Denny
Date: Sun Jan 2 20:09:34 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:OK, I think it's tightened up. It was partially boost-related and partially about the different values before and after the play.
The dialog shows the results of the play so this will be the player Elo and game Elo as updated by the play.
Note that Hop's Elo calculator will be close but not exact because of that before/after issue.
Date: Wed Jan 5 23:43:16 2022
User: sprucegoose
Message:This display of 'ELO' after every game, this constant red arrow pointed down which says "you're not good enough, I expected better of you" really sucks the fun out of this game.
Maybe I'll adapt, maybe I won't.
Maybe I'll go listen to Electric Light Orchestra...
Date: Thu Jan 6 00:57:54 2022
User: Uberman
Message:Are you saying that you usually have fun losing games, yet when there's a red arrow attached it's no longer fun?
Date: Thu Jan 6 03:53:25 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:"Note that Hop's Elo calculator will be close but not exact because of that before/after issue. "
I have made some changes to restore the ELO rating before the update.
And I have made an experiment today to see how close it is.
Link: ELO calculator
Date: Sun Jan 9 23:59:50 2022
User: sprucegoose
Message:Yes, Uberman, that's essentially it.
Date: Mon Jan 10 08:46:30 2022
User: Happylittlesu
Message:For a dedicated long-term player who will always be mediocre (actually worse) it’s nice to see that I have advanced from page 25 to page 22 of 27. It’s easy to remember and has the added benefit that if I’m felled by a game with a 30% win rate, I don’t have to mentally think I’m right back to square one, as my streak ends yet again. Since the majority of us are in effect playing against ourselves, it’s great to have an alternative goal system. Long live Mr Fixxit
Date: Mon Jan 10 09:49:07 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:I made it so on the Elo rankings page a much smaller delta lights up the green arrow. Maybe this will give sprucegoose the added serotonin rush to make it fun again. However, I also made a much smaller downward movement light up the red arrow. So upon further thought I'm afraid sprucegoose is probably not going to feel completely fulfilled ever, as is often the case with life.
I've also tried to make Elo displays consistently with 3 decimal places as movement often happens down in that range. Let me know if I've missed anything.
MrFixit
P.S. Does anyone have any constructive suggestions for sprucegoose? Like "don't lose games"?
Date: Mon Jan 10 12:14:45 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:No need for more than 1 decimal place, imo. Or 2, tops. And may I suggest we formally name this metric the "ELG" in honor of El Guapo?
Date: Mon Jan 10 13:01:24 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:With all due respect to Mr. ElGuapo, absolutely not "ELG", please!
So far, everything has been written about the "Elo" score!!
And, btw, I like 3 decimal places, 🙂!!
Date: Mon Jan 10 13:01:49 2022
User: HopDiriDiriDattiriDittiriDom
Message:3 decimal digits is a must for me. Most of the times, it stays the same or moves up 0.001 only. 1 or 2 would mean for me playing many games without seeing any change unless I lose a game.
Date: Mon Jan 10 14:08:28 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:Not that extreme, imo, 🙂!!
Lot's of players are seeing their Elo scores change by only 0.001 (or less) per game won!
Date: Mon Jan 10 14:12:06 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Well.............you're extreme, too, Tony, just in a different way (sorta). But "whatever"; it's a minute point. Much more important is to finally do away with freecell lite.
Date: Mon Jan 10 14:44:32 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:Hey I play a ton of what you derisively call Freecell Lite!!
Oh man, the gnashing of teeth before I introduced that. You'd have thought I was a mother raper or a father raper.
Date: Mon Jan 10 14:51:10 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:I know - and it was a TON of work. But before elo/elg, it didn't matter (as much). But it still destroyed a lot of the relativity of the database from the outset. As you know. In truth..........I'm still glad some folks enjoy it, but it just messed with everything else severely. And altho, yes, I derisively term it "lite", it *is* an accurate designation, no?
Date: Mon Jan 10 17:11:28 2022
User: ElGuapo
Message:Thanks, Kumquat, but I really prefer Elo too.
Date: Mon Jan 10 17:30:07 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:Oh I misread, I thought he was talking about winnables. How does Elo affect the database?
Date: Mon Jan 10 17:54:13 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:Yes, I was referring to winnables. ElGuapo was referring to an earlier post above where I suggested calling it "ELG" in his honor. That post you will find immediately underneath another of yours.
Date: Mon Jan 10 21:10:50 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:The number of unwinnables tends to be statistically pretty insignificant and the slight bit of knowledge that they've been weeded out should not affect outcome/stats very much. When did I do that winnables? 2008? Been a while.
Date: Mon Jan 10 21:17:48 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:TNmountainman has expounded on the whys of that numerous times. Do you not remember his exegesis?
Post follow-up