Subject: Rarely won winnables.

Date: Tue Dec 6 13:33:56 2022
User: cellmate
Message:

freecell lite... brings to mind that Merriam-Webster Word of the Year 2022... gaslighting

Date: Tue Dec 6 13:45:21 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Yes - appropriately. Makes those who engage in that think they're actually playing freecell. 😆

Date: Tue Dec 6 14:00:16 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:
Ironic using several nicknames and fake aliases to criticize someone about the integrity of how they play the game.

Also the fake narrative how it corrupts ELO ratings. The game just sees him as a slightly better player than he actually is, and ELO's adjust based on assumed 2300+ ELO Tony + his deck of cards have tallied.

Date: Tue Dec 6 14:04:20 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Are you suggesting that those who use artificial aids to win here, in a competitive context, are doing that winning with integrity?

Date: Tue Dec 6 14:09:41 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:
More like people with no integrity questioning the integrity of others, but I'm done with this because I know it's futile.

Date: Tue Dec 6 14:55:10 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
"Fake narrative"?

I would challenge anyone to find something at the link below or from any of the numerous quantitative discussions of ELO to show that avoiding recording a loss does not inflate your score (by not taking the hit from the lost games) or suppress the updated ELO associated with the game that was won with a single rather than multiple attempts.

Link: https://www.freecell.net/f/c/elo_about.html

Date: Tue Dec 6 15:22:43 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:
The fake narrative is that Tony using cards is materially corrupting the ELO database. You guys must have been on debate teams. Reframe statements and change the meaning of what was stated to something that can be refuted.

The impact is more akin to if someone spent an hour trying to solve hard games instead of spending 10 seconds looking for an opening move.

Date: Tue Dec 6 15:52:50 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
>>Date: Tue Dec 6 15:22:43 2022
>>User: rbw--3
>>Message: "The fake narrative is that Tony using cards is materially corrupting the ELO database."

That isn't my argument. The only changes in the ELO database are a) Tony's inflated ELO and b) inflated ELO values for the games he plays.

I don't recall anyone saying that Tony's use of cards is "materially corrupting the ELO database;" perhaps, someone will step up and correct me on that.

As I understand the arguments, they are pretty simple:
1) Tony is a cheater (several have used that term, but I have not)
2) Tony gains an unfair advantage by using cards to avoid recording losses
3) A logical consequence of using cards is Tony's (and all those who use cards) inflated ELO, artificially extended streaks, and small tweaks to the ELO of the games in question

Nothing can be done about any of this.

Date: Tue Dec 6 16:15:28 2022
User: firenze
Message:
Nothing, except get it on the record that there are some (many?) players on this site using external aids to inflate their scores and streaks beyond what their normal skills would allow.

Date: Tue Dec 6 16:27:01 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:
I don't recall anyone saying that Tony's use of cards is "materially corrupting the ELO database;"

From 2 days ago

firenze:

" El Guapo, Denny, and others put a lot of work into developing an Elo for this site. all for people like you to make it meaningless."
==========================================

Kumquat-of-Conciliation

"So..........altho it truly pains me to say it............Ok, I won't. firenze said it for me. "

Date: Tue Dec 6 16:45:40 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
Perhaps you need to ask them if they meant that literally or if it was hyperbole. (I am assuming the latter.)

Then you can let them know if you truly believe they "have no integrity."

Date: Tue Dec 6 17:27:57 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
This thread, and the "never won winnables" thread, both started by Tony, *should be* paeans to someone knocking off a very hard game. Again, a noble and worthwhile acknowledgement.

But for someone to take glory in changing the stats (and thus the elo pointage of games) by making a game that previously was 0/30 now 1/31, due to playing it 20-50 times on a table with a deck of cards and whilst making notes, kinda destroys the point. AND..........it takes away the joy and surprise (often) of someone eventually winning it to make it 1/79, 1/114, or whatever it would rightly otherwise have become. Same thing, to a lesser extent maybe, by making a game 3/94 that otherwise would have become 3/194 in time.

Everybody here (even Tony) knows his elo, whatever it is (I haven't looked because I don't care and am not an elo chaser myself), is a charade. Personally, I'm MUCH more concerned about the damage he has wrought upon "the database". Player elos can self-adjust as needed, but game elos don't (so easily). And *that's* how it negatively affects others. Whether that's "material" or not *could* be argued, but since he does this over hundreds (at least) of games, it stretches credulity to assert that it doesn't.

Date: Tue Dec 6 18:00:25 2022
User: rbw--3
Message:
"Then you can let them know if you truly believe they "have no integrity.""

Are you deliberately misdirecting here? Every reply you make is completely flawed in one way or another. You combined two unrelated topics and drew a conclusion that had no relationship to what I posted. Are you saying the 2 I quoted are posting under multiple aliases to try to hide their identities? If that's the case enlighten the rest of us.

Date: Tue Dec 6 18:02:48 2022
User: firenze
Message:
I am beginning to think a large number of the top elo scores are being maintained by external aids.

Date: Tue Dec 6 19:02:12 2022
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
On a tangential front, if I'm streaking now and lose a game that is 0/XXX but the Elo shows it is winnable, I no longer (mostly) try to solve it just so someone can potentially get that first win.

Date: Tue Dec 6 19:28:29 2022
User: firenze
Message:
Why shouldn't it be you. You're one of the best. Plus, that one lost give you the right to revenge.

Date: Tue Dec 6 19:33:23 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
Just for the total conciliation of the record..........

What I was referring to when I wrote "firenze said it for me" was this (from 'that other' thread):

"That's so sad and pathetic. I actually feel sorry for you. El Guapo, Denny and others put a lot of work into developing an elo for this site. all for people like you to make it meaningless. How will we ever know if the game ratings or the player ratings are what they should be" [sic]

Further........conciliatoryily.........I am not firenze, and I'm nearly certain he is not me (and I believe we're both thankful 🙏 for that!) But sorry that had to be so blatantly conciliated. 😉

Date: Tue Dec 6 19:51:37 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
>>Date: Tue Dec 6 14:04:20 2022
>>User: TNmountainman
>>Message: "Are you suggesting that those who use artificial aids to win here, in a competitive context, are doing that winning with integrity?"

>>>Date: Tue Dec 6 14:09:41 2022
>>>User: rbw--3
>>>Message: "More like people with no integrity questioning the integrity of others"

That's the full context. If what you wrote is not what you mean, be more careful with your responses. You get the last word between you and me. Chasing your drops of mercury is tiresome.

Date: Tue Dec 6 19:58:34 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
@ Dr.B.............gee, am I to blame for that? Here's what my point(s) have been on that (not that I'm some 'conscience' of freecell):

If you play, and lose, a game that becomes 0/30, but its elo demonstrates that it's winnable, I don't see a thing wrong with playing it again to try and beat it. Or again and again. As to where that moves from persistence and becomes 'damaging' is impossible to know. I think intent - and especially frequency - are the guiding parameters. And thus nebulous. The difference between 0/30 and 0/40 isn't tremendous - BUT the key is that those additional losses are "TRUE ATTEMPTS". You, as a good player, gave it serious gos *and they actually counted as losses*. They *should* count as losses!

Obviously completely a different story from someone who moves cards on a table around and around until they play out correctly for a 'win', then submits that work as if they got a right answer. On a multiple choice test, anyone who continually gets feedback on their guesses until they get it right should of course score 100%. Is that fair to the other students?

For tournaments, I don't know how that works. Seems like in the past, if I posed the question of why such-and-such game was 2/89 (in an unpopular variant where most games might average 5-10 plays), the response was often "probably was in a tournament". Since, as I understand the mickyw method, games in tournaments can rack up lots of "cheap" losses, those to me are losses that would better to not count. Has that recently been changed?

So.......to review...........intent is key. All IMHO.

Date: Tue Dec 6 20:14:11 2022
User: redberet
Message:
A true game rating is based on multiple opponents, not just one point of view.

Date: Tue Dec 6 21:12:03 2022
User: cellmate
Message:
when you play a game for streak, its only the first play, win or loss, that affects elo

subsequent replay+loss or replay+win increment the counts but have no effect on elo

every play should be recorded, thats just good IT

but for stats the win/loss counts should only reflect how many individuals have won or lost on the first try. Its the replays that really skew the win%

as for elo, its working better for game elo than for player elo

Date: Tue Dec 6 21:21:57 2022
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
In the past, if I lost a game while streaking that had no wins, but my spidey sense told me it might be winnable, I’d give it more attempts. But, now that the Elo rating lets you know for certain, it seems less fair. It’s always a great joy to win a game that shows up as 1/40+. It’s not quite the same to see the stats as 2/52+. I can’t see denying some future streaker the joy of seeing the 1 in the win column.

To the extent that TT (and others using aids) are denying players solving games using only their heads either more Elo points or the joy of being the first to solve a game on their first attempt, it would be nice if they saw the light 💡. But, that’s for them to decide. The lure of false glory is strong. Look at all the cheats over the years in swimming, cycling, weightlifting, athletics, baseball, etc.

Date: Wed Dec 7 03:57:32 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Denny has agreed (again) that using cards is not cheating!
It is just a normal part of streak play, for those with the necessary patience and determination.

Date: Wed Dec 7 05:07:56 2022
User: Klepp
Message:
Shaming sinners is useless, they possess no conscience.

Date: Wed Dec 7 08:06:50 2022
User: Narrows
Message:
Could you please cite the post where Denny said using cards is not cheating.

Date: Wed Dec 7 09:19:55 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
In the "Never won winnables thread":

Date: Wed Nov 23 10:39:33 2022
User: MrFixit
Message:
Again, my perspective: I don't care. Ignore. Worry about starving kids.

Date: Wed Dec 7 09:55:09 2022
User: Narrows
Message:
You said: Denny has agreed (again) that using cards is not cheating!

I do not see that in your citation. I read it this way:
He does say to ignore your cheating.
He does say to worry about starving kids.

You did say (again). Maybe you can find another time he agreed with you.

Date: Wed Dec 7 10:18:00 2022
User: Mastermind
Message:
Narrows
Search for " cheating".
A thread will appear titled " Cheating or may be just working the system ".
Go through the thread and see what Denny has written on Sun. April 10 2011.

Date: Wed Dec 7 10:40:17 2022
User: redberet
Message:
Me and my brother would always argue about who was the instigator and who was the agitator. Neither won.

Date: Wed Dec 7 10:50:24 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
>Date: Sun Apr 10 12:53:07 2011
>User: Denny
>Message: " ... I could imagine ways folks could *avoid* a loss by doing some of the things that have been suggested involving solvers and physical card decks and such but I've never consider that cheating, just obsessive behavior as anyone could do that."

https://www.freecell.net/f/c/disctopic.html?code=6738&replies=61

Wow! I never saw this. So, are we settling on this language as definitive? There are no rules regarding solvers or other external aids?

This notion is 100% inconsistent with the loud threat issued by either Denny or Mr. Fixit that intentionally losing strings of games in a given variant really mucks with the ELO system and anyone doing so could be subject to banning from this website.

Considering the loud and sometimes angry discussion around these issues and the amount of obsession concerning metrics (streaks, ELO, tournament wins), I think this site absolutely needs guidelines for behavior, especially as related to external aids. The use of external aids cannot be monitored or policed, but most players would abide by clearly defined rules.

Link: thread referenced by Mastermind

Date: Wed Dec 7 10:54:39 2022
User: Narrows
Message:
Thank you very much, Mastermind. You have clarified Denny's position.

From Denny: "I could imagine ways folks could *avoid* a loss by doing some of the things that have been suggested involving solvers and physical card decks and such but I've never consider that cheating, just obsessive behavior as anyone could do that."

I guess I won't be verry good at this site unless I adopt an obsessive behavior like TitanicTony.

Date: Wed Dec 7 11:20:10 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
We want the tablets, Klepp. We want Denny to scratch out a few lines to give us some guidelines.

Date: Wed Dec 7 11:33:04 2022
User: redberet
Message:
Guidelines are subject to interpretation. How about lane bumpers, so we can stay on the straight and narrow.

Date: Wed Dec 7 12:52:28 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Look just how long this shits been going on, and y'all will never gtfu, I'm sure Denny wants to babysit (no). And, I quit reading this one after my last post.

Date: Wed Dec 7 12:54:42 2022
User: firenze
Message:
Obviously not.

Date: Wed Dec 7 13:16:29 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Truly, it bores the crap out of me, and I'm not cray cray like y'all are. Grown effing men acting like pure imbeciles.

Date: Wed Dec 7 16:46:17 2022
User: redberet
Message:
Nothing like a little fire and brimstone to go with the polish sausage.

Date: Wed Dec 7 16:51:04 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
Duh buzz. That's religion.

Date: Wed Dec 7 17:13:05 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
@redberet -- LOL!

Date: Thu Dec 8 03:43:58 2022
User: Kumquat-of-Conciliation
Message:
Whut happent? Did some verses get excommunicated? A tablet or two broken?

Date: Thu Dec 8 17:41:45 2022
User: TitanicTony
Message:
Game: W6x5 28849-10; ...... Game stats: 50/4/8%/2154; ...... Player Elo: 2362.275 ▲ 1.886.

Date: Thu Dec 8 21:58:24 2022
User: WVMountains
Message:
All of the attacks on TitanicTony are really indirect but legitimate criticisms of Denny's inconsistent handling of the site.

Registered users can't use the undo button, but TitanicTony can use cards to help him do unlimited "undo" moves, yet all of these players are rated meticulously in the same elo system?

When players bring up these facts, Denny's response is he doesn't care, ignore it, and worry about starving kids. But don't lose strings of games and mess up the (compromised) elo system because this is a "competitive" freecell site. What legit competition allows different players advantages and others none?

It's Denny's unfair ruling of the freecell.net kingdom. Either clearly defined rules should be made to truly make it a competitive site or there should be a way to rank the players' elo separately based on whether they use aids or not. If he won't do that, then it should be said that this is a free-for-all site and remove the competitive title and elo system because what's the point?

Denny's going to keep being criticized indirectly by everyone who goes after TitanicTony until he does something.

Date: Thu Dec 8 22:31:19 2022
User: redberet
Message:
This should not be laid on Denny's doorstep. While this is his labor of love, he has a life outside of it. These squabbles have been going on for years. He's not our keeper. If a person wants to stress on inequities, only that person knows best on how to deal with it. Sure, it could be easy to issue an edict that no cheating is allowed. What would that realistically accomplish? There hasn't been a rule made that hasn't been broken.

Date: Thu Dec 8 23:34:35 2022
User: BuzzClik
Message:
@redberet -- I agree that WVmtn's post is a bit harsh, but I disagree with this thought of yours: "Sure, it could be easy to issue an edict that no cheating is allowed. What would that realistically accomplish?"

It would accomplish establishing a line that shouldn't be crossed. Unenforceable, for sure, but a line that establishes the meaning of fair play.

I would propose this language in one of Denny's lists about Freecell.net: "We have kept rigorous statistics for decades with the understanding that players will use only their brains to complete a given game. The use of any external aids, such as computer solvers or physical cards, is in direct opposition to the spirit of this site." No fire and brimstone, no threats. Just a clear line of what is expected.

I believe that this would satisfy the three noisiest posters in this context -- firenze, TN, and me -- but the other two would need to weigh in.

Date: Fri Dec 9 00:15:00 2022
User: redberet
Message:
There is no honor among thieves unfortunately. Appealing to the conscience of one who has none, is not a promising prospect.
Asking Denny to put something in writing that is of a dire concern to you, not necessarily his, is putting him on the spot. By him not having done so after all these years should speak volumes. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just futile.

Date: Fri Dec 9 00:31:12 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Sigh...... Anything along those lines would help, but why would Denny do that now when after 330 previous complaints he hasn't? Altho he *did* once say "It's against the spirit of the game", but I've been unable to find that again in the record. Around that same time, or maybe even exactly at the same time, he made the point that he *purposely* didn't include an "undo" button. That's pretty obvious what the intent was - and as I recall, he specifically stated that intent. It was clearly a volitional choice.

I actually agree, like Buzz, with WV's post, altho I also think it's a bit harsh. I think perhaps this site has become almost a monster - or maybe just too wide and varied to 'control', altho he manages the nuts and bolts exceedingly well - with the small exceptions like the ones joey and I keep mentioning. He created this wonderful little (at first) game site, and sometimes I wonder if it's grown bigger than he'd like. Obviously I can't know that - and obviously he does a fantastic job of supporting good charities. So hard to say something's too big when that ball is rolling. But we must seem like a bunch of 5-yr. olds sometimes.

And of course he's right to say "worry about starving kids"; and of course this is a first-world problem. But no - it's not even that; it's a zeroth-world problem (which I am just now defining as the luxury pursuits of first-world citizens). But it *is* a problem. I hate to invoke the Watergate assessment from one of Tricky's aides (Dean?), but it's almost like a cancer on (the competitive section of) the site. YET...............he hath spoken, recently, and I can't see him reversing again on that stance. I hope he would, but just don't see that happening.

And there are many, many, many more who have spoken out against the cheating, from time to time, in various threads, but who don't keep up the fight faithfully. I do NOT want to have to keep up this bifurcated competition, with the results *not* bifurcated. It's just not fair. "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!" But I'm speaking mostly for others there; my main issue, again, is that he's corrupted the database - which I consider to be perhaps the crown jewel of this site.

I'm holding my tongue on what I *really* think should be done with the cheaters, but with cheating being unenforceable, that also would be unfair on the punishment side, I guess. I think Denny's in almost a 'can't win' situation. He *must* want the cheating to not be there, but as we all know, he can't *really* stop it. I don't want any rancor; I don't want to inhibit anyone else's enjoyment of the site. But since - and this is ABSOLUTELY FOUNDATIONAL - he set it up as a competitive site, we ALLLLLLL should respect that and behave accordingly.

Denny......................LOVE the site; love what all you do in the world. That's not gonna change. Thanks for everything!!!

Date: Fri Dec 9 00:47:32 2022
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Sorry to hijack the thread, but...........

9x2 2198-9
16/2/12.5%/1996

A beast, at least for me.

Date: Sat Dec 10 10:13:36 2022
User: Ellie2
Message:
Game: 11x0 19057-5
Game stats: 35/5/14.3%/1867
Player Elo: 1906.517 ▲ 3.627

Date: Sat Dec 10 11:13:39 2022
User: outskirts
Message:
TN look down.

Your 👖 are on 🔥

Date: Sun Dec 11 16:39:13 2022
User: strassenbeuge
Message:
Game: 11x0 2271-5
Game stats: 47/2/4.3%