Subject: Cheating or maybe just working the system

Date: Fri Apr 10 17:01:42 2009
User: GoodOlMike
Message:
I remember, back in the early days of Denny's Freecell page, a player telling me that he kept a card deck handy so he (?) could try the hard games offline and keep his streak alive.
It seemed like cheating to me and really (!), cheating at solitaire seems like the ultimate pointless thing to do :-)
But over time others found ways to cheat. There are solver programs and probably some other methods that I haven't heard of.
It seems to me that some folks take this just a tad too seriously. It's a game. Beat your best time or your best streak. If you're an older player, just giving your brain a workout is a good thing :-)

Date: Fri Apr 10 17:10:03 2009
User: firenze
Message:
There are a lot of ways to cheat. Cheating at solitare may seem pointless, but at this site, you are competing against others, even when streaking, so I am not so sure it is solitaire in the pure sense.

I would be interested to know if anybody keeps track of how to win the really tough games for future reference in a streak or tournament should that game come up. That, to me would be the ultimate personal problem that may require an intervention by friends and family.

Date: Fri Apr 10 17:31:08 2009
User: Songcutter
Message:
Even when I'm streaking?

Date: Fri Apr 10 17:34:08 2009
User: firenze
Message:
Well, not you Song. ;)

Please?

Date: Fri Apr 10 18:53:55 2009
User: GoodOlMike
Message:
I check game stats to see how I'm doing. Am I having a good day or am I just winning games that almost everybody wins. In my current 11x1 streak, I've won several games that haven't been played before. Seems odd to me.

Date: Sat Apr 11 04:58:57 2009
User: chrissie8madrid
Message:
I play for fun and like the tournaments because they offer variety. I find "streaking" more boring. I have just completed a tournament in about 19 minutes (including 3 visits from the cat to pester me), but the winner took less than 7 minutes. I cannot imagine the level of stress that that must cause. I play the game to de-stress, not top up on some more!!

I am sure all you whizz kid players are going to leap in and say that speed does not cause stress, but as an "ordinary" player I find that hard to believe.

Anyway, since it is Saturday and just to contradict myself, I am going to have a go at the 9x2 streak (so you can all have a good laugh)! Luv2Uall

Date: Sat Apr 11 15:37:48 2009
User: Ann13
Message:
Tournaments are addicting, but I love to play them. I don't think playing to keep a streak going boring at all. It's more like practice for a tourney. I do not rank as one of the best tournament players but I enjoy trying to beat my own times and most of the time, finishing a tourney.
I've done pretty well in tournaments the last couple of days (well for me, anyway). I guess I can untie and let micky, calicokid, kenwa, kaos, and the rest of the best out of the closet. (HaHa)

Have a good weekend everyone.

Ann

Date: Thu Apr 7 10:32:16 2011
User: lrrwderby
Message:
I know of one person that is cheating.I will not name them, but they have a very large streak. they have 100% then I see 99% then when I look again it is back to 100% it has happend more than a few times

Date: Thu Apr 7 10:40:17 2011
User: firenze
Message:
The 99% may be because they haven't finished and won the game they are currently playing.

Date: Thu Apr 7 10:59:44 2011
User: hotnurse
Message:
Also the 100% can happen after numerous games in the high 99% because that tiny point of a percent eventually humps to the higher number.
Also, I suppose one could "cheat" in streaking by having a second computer to work through a game first, but in tournament the only "cheating" some (me) do is occasional drafting.

Date: Thu Apr 7 13:20:01 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
What firenze says is spot on. The way this works is, your games-played number gets updated as soon as you request a new game. So if you have won 100 games without a loss, you are at 100% until you call for the 101st game. Then you're at 100/101 - which rounds to 99.01 or so - while you are still playing. Then you win that one. Back you go to 100% until you call for the next one.

You only really notice this for perfect streaks or a really small number of games; otherwise, who's really going to notice the dif between 98.75 and 98.76?

Date: Thu Apr 7 13:35:57 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
By the way, this is 'reasonable' behaviour for the system in the following sense: if the player is just dashing through a game he's going to win, the time spent at the 'wrong percentage' is going to be small; likewise, when he quits for the time being NOT in the middle of a game, the listed percentage is the true percentage. However, if you quit with a game in progress, there's a really good chance either you're stuck and are going to lose it or you've already lost it and don't want to admit it yet. So the long term accuracy of the percentage stat is improved by the system's assuming you're going to lose a game until you prove otherwise.

MORE reasonable, I suppose, would be not to count an in-progress game in the games-played count unless the person is timed out on the server. I know Denny COULD do this, since he could easily look up whether somebody's got a current session when constructing the scores pages. But it seems like a hell of a waste of server resources for not much gain so I'm betting it'll stay the way it is.

Date: Thu Apr 7 13:38:33 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
no this player has a perfect streak and the numbers won and played were deferant . untell he fixed it, like say he played 100 games it said won 100 games played 101 games then back to won 101. do you get what i am trying to say?

Date: Thu Apr 7 13:41:27 2011
User: hotnurse
Message:
Maybe that perfect streak started at game number two. Say he lost game one, then started over at game two and was perfect from there on, which would probably give him a 100%. Maybe???

Date: Thu Apr 7 13:54:46 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
I just tried it on my 11x4 (which I had never played before.) I won the first, checked the stats, I have 1 win 1 played. Then I started a new game, and refreshed the stats. Now it says 2 played, and 50%. When I get around to winning it (with a way too huge time taken *grin*) it'll get me the second win and I'll be back to 100%.

Date: Thu Apr 7 13:55:36 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
no he has never lost a game.he knows a way to cheat. and i don't see the point.because that dosen't mean he is a good player.Just a cheater.

Date: Thu Apr 7 13:57:36 2011
User: hotnurse
Message:
As long as he knows he cheats, and that's ok by him, there's not much else to do about it. But...........just curious, HOW does "he" cheat??

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:00:05 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
I still don't understand the cheating part. I have never lost an 11x4. For two minutes while I was playing my second one, the system listed me at 50, because I had 2 games played (the one you are playing counts) and 1 win. When I did win, I was back to 100%. I certainly didn't cheat. What are you saying this other fellow did?

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:05:41 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
thats my point I don't know. but he is cheating.Maybe he should share his secert.then we could all have perfact scores. Just start over with a different name.also in his case ,if he lost a game he would have to start over; but he doesn't and he has a perfact score

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:08:14 2011
User: DR.PEPPER
Message:
If a game is in progress, then that game will count toward the statistics, and it will appear as if a game has been lost, before it has been completed. This is certainly not cheating. It happens to every player, every time they play a game. It happens to you, Irrwderby3, every time. Are you cheating? It's been explained and that is how it works, to be certain. What I don't understand is why can't you understand this. Is there another way to explain?

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:11:11 2011
User: hotnurse
Message:
Sound like a personal vendetta to me. Maybe.

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:14:36 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
no you don't understand. I do know that but thats not what I am saying.I am saying that I saw a lost game recored, then he fixed it with a win. I realy don't care I just wonder how he dose it.

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:16:12 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
It's impossible for you to have seen a 'lost game'. Losses are not listed in the statistics.

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:19:09 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
In fact, I bet Denny doesn't even record losses as such. He only records games played, wins, and whether a game is in progress for the player.

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:25:02 2011
User: firenze
Message:
Denny does record lost games in the new addition to the the bottom of the personal score page. Perhaps Irrwderby3 can take a picture of this cheaters personal score page for the last hundred games and show us where he/she lost a game and then corrected it to a win.

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:29:01 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
ok guys relaxe. you still don't know what i am saying you can click on the name of a player to see how many games won and how many played. he played more than he won but fixt it ,irealy don't care just woundering how he manage to do it. I don't have a vendetta.He has a perfact score.whith thousands of game played.just curious....george

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:32:12 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
(Musing) You save a ton of database space recording only what you have to, if the other info can be derived. Since the system only allows you to have one game active at a time, all he has to do is record games-played and wins for each variant. Then one overall state-of-game-in-progress block per person which is <empty> if you don't have one. In that state is what variant, what game, and what progress as known to the server. No need to record a loss count pervariant, saves a lot of space. If you didn't win it, you lost it. That's what makes it behave the way it does. As I said above, it's even reasonable.

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:38:46 2011
User: joeygray
Message:
lrrw: It seems crystal clear to me that it is YOU who doesn't understand what is happening here. Every time ANYBODY asks the server for a new game, that person is AUTOMATICALLY charged with one more game played than he did an instant ago. He CAN'T be credited with a WIN until he actually wins. So it's going to look (to you, in the way you are looking at it, anyway) as if he has more games played than wins. If he should he win that game, then it will no longer look like that.

Date: Thu Apr 7 14:46:23 2011
User: hotnurse
Message:
Now I am really curious as to HOW this is being observed; other than checking game stats here. Are you *with* that person as he/she plays? Or at work in the next cube? Really, not being a smart butt, but just wondering.
Also, fyi, these people who have been trying to help you have been here for eons; me for almost 10 yrs. So you are getting excellent help and understanding.

Date: Thu Apr 7 16:09:34 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
ok i give up its not you its me.

Date: Thu Apr 7 16:37:45 2011
User: Punster
Message:
Personal opnion => I feel sorry for anyone that really cheats. That takes the FUN out of playing. Anyone can win by cheating, so a big streak is meaningless unless you achieve it by not cheating.

Date: Thu Apr 7 16:39:12 2011
User: hotnurse
Message:
Does that count cheating on your taxes too Pun? ;)

Date: Thu Apr 7 16:48:23 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
Punster, I agree with you ,that was my point,some just did not get what I was trying to say

Date: Thu Apr 7 17:00:27 2011
User: DR.PEPPER
Message:
What I got, that you said, was that you were accusing someone of cheating. Good thing you didn't mention their name, or you'd have to apologize, because you are wrong. If I am missing something, please explain.

Date: Thu Apr 7 17:11:33 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
just that they have a very large number of wins 100% and a few times It said so many games playe and so many games won and then it was defferent it was the same number played as won,just woundering how they did it. did not mean to strat anything

Date: Thu Apr 7 17:15:54 2011
User: DR.PEPPER
Message:
"It" said "so many games played and so many games won, and then it was different, it was the same number played as won."

That's what we've been saying! "IT" WILL say that, WHILE A GAME IS IN PROGRESS. I thought you said you understood that. Joeygray explained exactly WHY it works that way. And this is the gratitude he gets!?!

Date: Thu Apr 7 17:19:13 2011
User: lrrwderby3
Message:
no but there was no game in progress. you can check by clicking on the players name... ok i give up.. ..you win

Date: Thu Apr 7 17:19:42 2011
User: mrbuck
Message:
I'll toss some gratitude joeygray's way. In fact, I'll be him a beer when I see him next.

mrbuck

Date: Thu Apr 7 17:22:57 2011
User: firenze
Message:
How about me?

Date: Thu Apr 7 18:12:23 2011
User: kangaroo
Message:
With computers and the internet there's no such thing as cheating in the classical sense of the word. You can buy books about cheating at Star Wars (or whatever).

You're barking up the wrong tree lrrwderby3. firenze and joeygray are absolutely right.

Date: Thu Apr 7 22:04:22 2011
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:
lrrwderby3,not to worry. I figgered out what youre seeing. Theyre right. In this case,nobodys cheating. At one time,as you streaked along,the stats ALWAYS showed 100%. The ONLY time you saw anything less,was when you lost. Something changed,so that NOW,as they said,youll see a lesser percentage simply cuz youre PLAYING a game. If you win,it shows 100% again.

Heres how you can see this. Start a streak in 10x6,and win one. Then start another 10x6 game. Now click on "scores" at upper left of this page. Go to 10x6,then "daily" scores. Click that and see youre at 50%. Then go win that next game and check it out. Voila!-100%.

Date: Thu Apr 7 22:41:07 2011
User: Dr.Bombay
Message:
I use a neural-net processor with a bi-optic visual scanner to solve all the games. Sometimes it works really well but other times it seems to have a hard time differentiating red from black or finding a way to clear a column.

Date: Fri Apr 8 02:12:15 2011
User: malr
Message:
I think we're all missing the point of this thread. So...

I think keeping jars of toenail clippings is more pointless than cheating at solitaire. Anyone got anything better?

;-))

Helen

Date: Fri Apr 8 05:50:04 2011
User: Denny
Message:
Irrwderby, who do you suspect? I don't know how this could be possible. There is no server command to "fix game." That said I'd never say never.

Date: Fri Apr 8 14:41:07 2011
User: lrrwderby
Message:
Denny, you don't think it is possible. That is what I want to know. but when I look at the page were it lists current, best,played and won the numbers where different. off by one number and 99% then looked again and they where all the same a perfect score. and 100%. Everyone seems to think this is normal but no other players where like that. i know i might not be explaining this right. Could someone put there computer back to a day they won all games and redo that game untill they win?

Date: Fri Apr 8 15:19:52 2011
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:
No way to cheat that way. Once youve played,its in freecells memory and cheating is impossible. Like I said,start a new streak in a variant. 10x6 is easiest. After you win a game,start the next one,but dont finish it. Then go check your scores in 10x6 "daily". It will show youre at 50%. Now go back and finish the other 10x6 game. Then go check your score again in 10x6 "daily". Youll be at 100%.

Date: Fri Apr 8 15:25:20 2011
User: free@last
Message:
I think this is what lrrw is talking about.

For my 12x1, not playing:
current streak: 167
best streak: 455
plays: 1230
wins: 1223
win percent: 99.43%
average time: 3:01 minutes
daily streak: 0
best today: 0
best daily: 62

Start new game:
current streak: 167
best streak: 455
plays: 1231 <------------INCREASED by 1!
wins: 1223
win percent: 99.35% <-----DECREASED a bit
average time: 3:01 minutes
daily streak: 0
best today: 0
best daily: 62

After winning that game:
current streak: 168
best streak: 455
plays: 1231
wins: 1224 <-----INCREASED by 1
win percent: 99.43% <--- back to "normal"
average time: 3:01 minutes
daily streak: 1
best today: 1
best daily: 62

Date: Fri Apr 8 15:28:10 2011
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:
Why,thats a righter-upper!

Date: Fri Apr 8 15:36:51 2011
User: lrrwderby
Message:
no that isnot what i am saying your wins a playes number or not the same and you then have 99.43% not 100% this persons play current best or not the same, then later they are. I think just because everyone dose not know how to cheat, dose not mean it can not be done, I think a real computer guy CAN and dose find a way Rember the person I am talking about has NEVER lost a game in 12x2 and has payed thousands of games. I know the game is easey but after paying so many games you are bound to make a stupied mistake.

Date: Fri Apr 8 15:47:00 2011
User: !_--FAST-ISHAM--_
Message:
Why dont say who they are? Theyre just cheating,right? Go ahead,rat em owt.