Subject: winnable format

Date: Sat May 21 13:51:32 2011
User: Denny
Message:
So I'd argued that adding "winnable" mode might only affect 13x0 and that's seeming to be the case. That variant seems unique in that it's overall pretty easy, but with enough of a sprinkling of unwinnables to make it not very suitable for streaking, but folks still really really wanted to streak. The other winnable formats remind me of winnable solitaire (link below) where I did all this work to make sure every game was winnable but that fact is some games are just hard for humans so regardless of the proof that the game is winnable, it's really really hard to streak. Seems to be the same for most of the other variants with the possible exception of 12x1. Thoughts?

Link: Winnable Solitaire

Date: Sat May 21 14:26:41 2011
User: kackdie
Message:
I never knew there were other versions available till a few days ago - 13/0 is more fun!

Date: Sat May 21 14:30:10 2011
User: Rocket_J_Squirrel
Message:
It is precisely because a rare few of the Winnable Solitaire games are indeed a tremendous challenge that I keep coming back after all these years. Myself, I would have no interest in something that was mindlessly easy. The real challenge in streaking Winnable seems to be that the monsters look pretty much (almost) like all the others - until you have barged in, made a few plays and hopelessly buried yourself.

Date: Sat May 21 15:25:30 2011
User: TitanicTony
Message:
No, No, NO... Last December I tried REALLY hard to improve my 12x1 (baker's dozen) streak, but kept coming up against unwinnable games (or at least games that had never been won). I checked recently and there are still 16 games that have never been won (12x1, level 10). Am I to believe that those 16 games are actually winnable? Or, do I have to do something different to get the winnable variety? Thanks, TT

Date: Sat May 21 15:45:51 2011
User: mildcat
Message:
I'v been playing Winnable Slurpies. Only about 20 other people are playing it.

Date: Sat May 21 16:23:38 2011
User: dcn21
Message:
There's 80 people on the all time list and 40 on the current list of winnable slurpees, actually mildcat (I missed the part about why you call them slurpees, Denny). Ok,how many are going to keep playing? It's only a week old, though, I think we have to give the whole winnable format a chance, maybe players will come around to them eventually. Anyway, I'm definitely having fun with the winnable slurpees.

Date: Sat May 21 17:05:10 2011
User: roo
Message:
TT, you have to do something different. They have their own little section in the drop down menu.

Date: Sat May 21 17:07:19 2011
User: Punster
Message:
I like playing the 12x1 winnable. I know the other one was pretty much winnable, but I like the idea that all of the games are "winnable" and I'll only lose if "I" screw up !! Thanks for doing this guys !

Date: Sat May 21 18:07:56 2011
User: kangaroo
Message:
I've been playing the winnable 13x0 under another name. When I screw up I'll play again under my usual name (I played one game under this name by accident). The other winnable variants which interest me are 4x10, 5x8 and 10x1. If you're looking to expand the range I'd love to see winnable 10x0 and I think 11x0 and 12x0 would be popular too. I'm sure everyone appreciates all the work which went into this. It will take some time for players to show this "with their feet". I wasn't around when the site opened but I suspect people were slow to switch to variants other than 8x4 in the beginning. One thing with winnable 13x0, the playing strategy is different. One game, 4447-10, took five minutes to work out an opening move. From there I quickly cleared two columns and then it took another five minutes to work out how to safely proceed. If I hadn't sent a 3S home it would have been quicker. Total time for the game 14:15. Game stats 13/37. Another game, 9473-10, only took 2:43 and yet had game stats 16/41. As I found an opening quickly it was only by luck I think that I avoided a dead end! Thanks again Denny and free@last!

Date: Sat May 21 19:07:01 2011
User: 5737525
Message:
I am playing 4 varieties of winnables and really enjoy them. I like knowing that if I lose, its because I screwed up; and no matter how hard it looks, I know if I study it hard enough I ought to be able to find a solution. So please do not remove the winnables options

Date: Sat May 21 19:08:40 2011
User: TNmountainman
Message:
I agree with dcn21. It's WAY too early to tell how this will catch on. You mention the relative popularity of winnable 13x0, compared to the other winnable formats. A more relevant statistic, it would seem is to compare the ratio of played winnable games to played 'regular' games for the other formats in addition to 13x0. Obviously, the people clamoring for the winnable 13x0 are eating that up. The other variants, played less, will take time to see how much participation they will get. I, for example, have yet to play any winnable games. Give it time......... Also, although I haven't even tried winnable games yet, I think, like roo, that I would really like the 11x0 and 12x0, and probably even 10x0, whenever I go down that path.

Date: Sat May 21 22:08:10 2011
User: Aletta2
Message:
No, I'm at the level where I appreciate even winnable 7x4. Keep up the good work!

Date: Sat May 21 23:16:02 2011
User: .!.
Message:
Im thinking now that these "winnable" variants will probably replace the regular versions.

Date: Sun May 22 00:36:43 2011
User: dcn21
Message:
There might be something in that, .!. Not many people play the really hard variants because there's a lot of luck involved but if you know they're all winnable it's a different story. I stopped playing 13x0 for that very reason, because of the unwinnables. Winnables are more accurate test of streaking skill.

Date: Sun May 22 01:08:43 2011
User: TNmountainman
Message:
That's true (sort of), but there *is* a difference between an 80% winning percentage, vs. a 77% or 78% (given enough plays) winning percentage in variant X. It may take a keener eye, or someone might need to know the degree of difficulty of variant X, but that information *is* there. Maybe just not as obvious. My point, really, is that technically, it's not (a more accurate test), but it's going to be easier to notice. The downside of that, however, and it's not trivial, is that in many variants, the longer streaks will make it more tedious to see this separation. 13x0 being a prominent example of that. I just looked at the new list of current leaders in winnable 13x0. There are 12 players with streaks of 100 or more. 10 of the 12 have winning percentages of 99+%, and the other two just below that. So it might (in fact, it will) take thousands of games to get a good idea of the relative skill levels of those players. Although I like 13x0 occasionally, I don't want to have to play many 100's of games to see where I would fit in overall. Which relates to a point I've made before - that something like 12x0, 10x1, 11x0, etc. makes that same separation happen much quicker. Winnable 10x1, for example, with a much smaller sample size, of course, has an "all-time" long streak of 39. I would argue, then, that winnable 10x1 gives an even more accurate test of skill, and much quicker. Just my 18 cents or so worth........

Date: Sun May 22 04:16:58 2011
User: malr
Message:
I really appreciate the winnable versions - I've dipped my toe in most of them, and look forward to a more thorough exploration.

Date: Sun May 22 05:40:26 2011
User: Uberman
Message:
What malr said. Really liking the fact that I'm in control of my own freecell-streak destiny...er...type thing. Also, give it a little time for people to realise it's even there as an option - I'm sure it'll become more popular.

Date: Sun May 22 06:14:01 2011
User: malr
Message:
Uberman - dangerous sentiment! Some of what I've said here even I don't agree with... I've definitely been on both sides of the fence with regard to Kiva, and I think a couple of other things too.

Date: Sun May 22 06:27:43 2011
User: Uberman
Message:
No worries malr, I'm pretty sure my sentiment holds up for all of that one sentence of yours, at least. ;o) Weird thing....I decided to continue my streak in 6x5 that I couldn't carry on yesterday in the SSC due to lack of time, but realised I'd selected 6x5 winnable by mistake, which I didn't have a streak in. So then I changed back to normal 6x5, and got a pretty tough game, but somehow I must've forgotten I was playing 'non'-winnable as I told myself to stick at it as it must be winnable(!) I did end up winning it, and it's now 2-1, and only realised again afterwards that it was in normal streak mode! Aargh, winnable is messing with my head!

Date: Sun May 22 07:48:21 2011
User: rbrandes
Message:
What Rocket_J_Squrrel said! If you want a winnable 13-0 ball buster try 15653-6! I like the challenge and the occasional easy game where I screw myself, and the rare nut like the game above that is hard to crack. It makes me concentrate on not just clearing the first column, but thinking ahead to getting a second column clear. And, sometimes two clear columns is not enough! I may try other variants eventually. But, Denny, I think you are expecting too much too soon. If you build it, they will come! Regards, Ray

Date: Sun May 22 07:58:06 2011
User: rbrandes
Message:
Just when you think you are on the right track... 13-0 23936-6!!!!! One rears up and bites you! The main difference is that the winnable format is fair and you know you have a fighting chance at a streak. With the standard 13-0 each game could be like stepping on a mine. Nothing you can do about it. Regards, Ray

Date: Sun May 22 11:26:05 2011
User: ValpoJim
Message:
I'm very much enjoying the new formats. Huge kudos to Denny and free@last. Since most of my games are 11-sum variants, I'm kinda in heaven right now with the new games available. When I reflect on my streak enders, I'd say the top 3 overall reasons are 1) Being too impatient to take the time to figure it out, 2) a poor night's sleep or due to jet lag (I'm on a 7 hour lag right now), and 3) hitting an unwinnable game. So, there's certainly room for personal improvement.

Date: Sun May 22 11:56:23 2011
User: rbrandes
Message:
ValpoJim, My streak enders are rated on number of empty beer cans lying around. Regards, Ray

Date: Sun May 22 13:56:14 2011
User: Ron052256
Message:
I can assure you that those who play Lucky 13 do love the new winnable formats and appreciate the work that it took to develop it.

Date: Sun May 22 18:31:02 2011
User: mold
Message:
I must have missed something. I've been playing the new variants and the old but when I look at my score the results are being combined, i.e. there doesn't seem to be separate accumulations for the winnable and the old variant. What's up?

Date: Sun May 22 20:07:25 2011
User: Denny
Message:
As I was saying, yup, 13x0 is the sweet spot for "winnable" because it's easy enough to streak in but had been a minefield of the occasional unwinnable that prevented the satisfaction of a big streak. 12x1 is similarly easily streakable but the unwinnables are very infrequent. For example, at difficulty level 10, only 16 of the games are unwinnable. At level 5, only 1. mold--I see your results for winnable linked below. They're at the end of the scores right prior to your play history. Where exactly are you expecting to see them that you're not? If they're not showing up on the game win box your probably just need to do a Ctrl-F5 or clear your browser cache. Denny

Date: Sun May 22 20:07:53 2011
User: Denny
Message:
Now actually including a link to mold's scores.

Link: mod's scores

Date: Mon May 23 08:00:38 2011
User: mold
Message:
Denny- If I play a winnable bakers dozen and click on the streak score in the "Congratulations" window I get the variant specific score for that variant - in this case 12x1. I get the same display regardless of whether I play winnable or normal and the results from the two types are combined. If I follow your link (above) I get my scores for all the variants and the winnable and normal are listed separately. This is strange - it seems to suggest that the 12-1 and other dual variants are not treated as entirely separate types and sometimes get combined.

Date: Mon May 23 09:53:51 2011
User: Denny
Message:
Like I said, Ctrl-F5 or clear the browser cache. You're getting a very stale scores dialog from weeks ago.

Date: Mon May 23 13:16:44 2011
User: free@last
Message:
Denny, Are the winnables available via the mobile version? I'm just wondering why someone would play non-winnable 7x4, for example.

Date: Mon May 23 14:08:03 2011
User: TNmountainman
Message:
I, for one, would play it, because all the historical records are in non-winnable. To put it another way, we, collectively, as the body of all freecell players on this site, have hundreds of thousands of hours, and millions of games as a database of collective 'wisdom'(?), or at least effort, involved in the current database. If one is winning 90% (or 95%, or whatever goal level one aims for) of 7x4s (non-winnable version), then one knows how well one is doing. Until there is quite an extensive database built up with the winnable version, it's much harder to tell how well you're doing, relative to others. I may belong to a minority exception in that thinking, however.

Date: Mon May 23 14:24:33 2011
User: firenze
Message:
If I may add,TN, to follow free@last's question, we might as well make all levels winnable and do away with the old variants that had unwinnables and the previous stats for them from the last 15 years. If there aren't enough winnable games to staff the variant, delete that variant (i.e., 4x4) Start fresh. We could keep the 8x4 stats and all the other variants that have proven to have no unwinnables and their stats.

Date: Mon May 23 14:55:24 2011
User: Denny
Message:
Mobile still only does regular, not winnable. Doubt I'll change that. I play regular 7x4 all the time because I mostly play on mobile. And when I crash and burn in 7x4 it's almost always because the game was hard, not because it was unwinnable. I think I've only been bit once by an unwinnable game in 7x4. Unwinnable percentages are really low: diff 5 - 0.1% diff 6 - 0.22% diff 7 - 0.44% diff 8 - 0.75% diff 9 - 1% diff 10 - 1.6% (like I'd ever get s streak this long, yeah right) Compare that to 13x0 games which in contrast are typically easy to win but have a rather high sprinkling of unwinnables: diff 5 - 1.6% diff 6 - 2.1% diff 7 - 2.7% diff 8 - 3.5% diff 9 - 4.3% diff 10 - 5%

Date: Mon May 23 17:21:45 2011
User: mold
Message:
Denny- Clearing the cache did it. Thanks

Date: Wed May 25 23:04:55 2011
User: ValpoJim
Message:
Just finished a winnable 11x1 that was incredibly difficult. 11-1-10-22507 was the game. Gave up after about 20 minutes and then found I was the 65th play with ZERO wins. Decided to put the winnable aspect to the test and kept playing it until finally finding the winning line on about the 10th try. Check it out in custom mode if you want a good challenge. Yes, winnable means winnable, at least for this one.

Date: Thu May 26 12:58:35 2011
User: Bigflare
Message:
Game 13249 has had 188 plays and no wins. It came up for me in category 5 difficulty range. Maybe it should be moved to 10. What do ya think?

Date: Thu May 26 13:10:04 2011
User: TNmountainman
Message:
Sounds more like a level 7 or 8...